Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
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21-07-2017, 11:47 AM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(21-07-2017 10:15 AM)Reducetarian Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 09:55 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  And it really does feel like a race to see which side wins and we're close to a tipping point one way or the other. At least it feels that way to me (I'm biased 'cause I'm living at this moment in time) and it feels like we're losing. The lights seem to be going out throughout Europe, and here in the US there's no shortage of illiberalism and intolerance.

I respectfully disagree: the lights are NOT going out throughout Europe. If you look at the way these cultures have adapted to massive changes in values and mores over the past 50 years, including increased secularization and internationalization, these nations, particularly in northern Europe, have made light-years of progress.

The fact that so many desperate people are trying to immigrate to these countries, rather than fleeing them, is proof of their success.

And contrary to the right-wing talking points, these immigrants are not trying to change the countries to which they are immigrating. They are mostly looking for what every decent person is searching for: a peaceful, tolerant society that offers their children a chance to succeed in life. In the meantime, to help them cope with all the strangeness of their displacement, they are seeking individuals like themselves who can help them adapt to their new environment.

They are also doing their best to adapt to the increasing rate of technological change, as are we all, but they are often starting from less familiarity, which doesn't help.

The tipping point occurred with the invention of the transistor, and the advent of the PC. The world is just experiencing the inevitable growing pains of the information age.

The race, if there is one, is to see who can adapt the quickest.

I certainly hope I'm wrong. You use a time scale of the last 50 years, I was thinking much more recent, say 5 to 10. If the right-wing talking points you speak of mean a purposeful, conscious (or worse, conspiratorial) attempt on the part of migrants to change the European societies they enter then I agree with you (though I think there is some degree of all of that going on too) but I do not believe they are bringing huge shares of traditional liberal values to their new homelands. They are bringing many sexist, homophobic intolerant values from home, they're not going to show up and breathe European air and suddenly become Voltaires. That said, I don't begrudge them their desires to move to better situations for themselves and their families, and I hope I don't need to clarify with a million disclaimers that I'm not speaking about "all" of any population, of course there are many very valuable liberal-minded migrants enriching Europe with their presence.

Let the race begin for who is first to call me a racist xenophobic asshole!

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21-07-2017, 01:29 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(21-07-2017 11:47 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 10:15 AM)Reducetarian Wrote:  I respectfully disagree: the lights are NOT going out throughout Europe. If you look at the way these cultures have adapted to massive changes in values and mores over the past 50 years, including increased secularization and internationalization, these nations, particularly in northern Europe, have made light-years of progress.

The fact that so many desperate people are trying to immigrate to these countries, rather than fleeing them, is proof of their success.

And contrary to the right-wing talking points, these immigrants are not trying to change the countries to which they are immigrating. They are mostly looking for what every decent person is searching for: a peaceful, tolerant society that offers their children a chance to succeed in life. In the meantime, to help them cope with all the strangeness of their displacement, they are seeking individuals like themselves who can help them adapt to their new environment.

They are also doing their best to adapt to the increasing rate of technological change, as are we all, but they are often starting from less familiarity, which doesn't help.

The tipping point occurred with the invention of the transistor, and the advent of the PC. The world is just experiencing the inevitable growing pains of the information age.

The race, if there is one, is to see who can adapt the quickest.

I certainly hope I'm wrong. You use a time scale of the last 50 years, I was thinking much more recent, say 5 to 10. If the right-wing talking points you speak of mean a purposeful, conscious (or worse, conspiratorial) attempt on the part of migrants to change the European societies they enter then I agree with you (though I think there is some degree of all of that going on too) but I do not believe they are bringing huge shares of traditional liberal values to their new homelands. They are bringing many sexist, homophobic intolerant values from home, they're not going to show up and breathe European air and suddenly become Voltaires. That said, I don't begrudge them their desires to move to better situations for themselves and their families, and I hope I don't need to clarify with a million disclaimers that I'm not speaking about "all" of any population, of course there are many very valuable liberal-minded migrants enriching Europe with their presence.

Let the race begin for who is first to call me a racist xenophobic asshole!

Let's just say that I see very few brown-skinned immigrants among the neo-Nazi, extremist right-wing fascist homophobes who espouse a return to traditional European paternalistic values and "the olde ways". So I don't think it's fair to blame immigrants for a rise in "sexist, homophobic intolerant values" in Europe.

That's not to say that you're wrong in saying that some immigrants bring traditional values with them when they immigrate, but I think that you overestimate the influence of immigrants on the culture of the host country, regardless of their numbers. Rather, it's the immigrants, and especially their children, who tend to be assimilated into the dominant culture of their new country.

The drive to assimilate, especially among the young, should not be underestimated.

This is even true in Canada, a country that has been defined as "post-nationalist" because it lacks a strong national identity (except in Quebec, and even there nationalism is fading among the young). In a country that tends to celebrate multiculturalism and does not expect immigrants to give up their traditions and values, except if they directly contradict Canadian laws and values, wave after wave of immigrants have not managed to impose their values on the national psyche.

This gives a good summary of the proportion and origin of immigrants coming to Canada. Notice the increase in diversity since the 1960s, mostly coming from very traditional areas of the world, and yet little-if-any corresponding "traditionalist" influence on Canadian society.

Currently, one-in-five Canadians was not born in Canada.

Your faith is not evidence, your opinion is not fact, and your bias is not wisdom
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21-07-2017, 01:58 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
The basic tenet of the RCC: "Our bullshit is true and your bullshit is not."

Fuck 'em all.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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21-07-2017, 02:43 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
A quick google shows that one can get a wide variety of Santa Muerte merchandise online. T-shirts and statues. Isn't capitalism wonderful?

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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21-07-2017, 02:45 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(21-07-2017 01:29 PM)Reducetarian Wrote:  Let's just say that I see very few brown-skinned immigrants among the neo-Nazi, extremist right-wing fascist homophobes who espouse a return to traditional European paternalistic values and "the olde ways". So I don't think it's fair to blame immigrants for a rise in "sexist, homophobic intolerant values" in Europe.

I do blame immigrants for the rise in sexist, homophobic intolerant values in Europe. Why must that mean I don't also blame neo-Nazi extremist right-wing fascists for the rise in sexist, homophobic intolerant values in Europe? I like people who aren't sexist, homophobic, and intolerant, full stop. (And again, as I suppose must be done in conversations like this, I must stress I don't mean all immigrants etc etc.)

Quote:That's not to say that you're wrong in saying that some immigrants bring traditional values with them when they immigrate, but I think that you overestimate the influence of immigrants on the culture of the host country, regardless of their numbers.

I think you are underestimating the effect, and it is an overall negative effect. Hopefully neither one of us wants to get into a war of statistics and polls and such but I rarely hear anecdotes about how much more happy, carefree and optimistic the people of Europe are now compared to ten years ago. And "regardless of the numbers"? I respectfully suggest you cannot mean this.

Quote: Rather, it's the immigrants, and especially their children, who tend to be assimilated into the dominant culture of their new country.

The drive to assimilate, especially among the young, should not be underestimated.
Fair points.

Quote:This is even true in Canada, a country that has been defined as "post-nationalist" because it lacks a strong national identity (except in Quebec, and even there nationalism is fading among the young). In a country that tends to celebrate multiculturalism and does not expect immigrants to give up their traditions and values, except if they directly contradict Canadian laws and values, wave after wave of immigrants have not managed to impose their values on the national psyche.

This gives a good summary of the proportion and origin of immigrants coming to Canada. Notice the increase in diversity since the 1960s, mostly coming from very traditional areas of the world, and yet little-if-any corresponding "traditionalist" influence on Canadian society.

Currently, one-in-five Canadians was not born in Canada.

I was referencing Europe specifically because of the uncontrolled influx of immigrants, something not happening in Canada and the US.

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21-07-2017, 05:05 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(21-07-2017 02:45 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  I do blame immigrants for the rise in sexist, homophobic intolerant values in Europe.

Then you're making too broad statement. Poland manages to be sexist, intolerant and homophobic quite well on it's own.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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22-07-2017, 02:38 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(21-07-2017 05:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 02:45 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  I do blame immigrants for the rise in sexist, homophobic intolerant values in Europe.

Then you're making too broad statement. Poland manages to be sexist, intolerant and homophobic quite well on it's own.

That can be true about native Poles, and I'm sure it is, but doesn't make my statement less true. I didn't say it was "only" immigrants with these attitudes.

Disclaimer alert!!! And as I said: "And again, as I suppose must be done in conversations like this, I must stress I don't mean all immigrants etc etc." let it be clear I also mean this about native Poles!

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22-07-2017, 02:55 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(22-07-2017 02:38 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 05:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Then you're making too broad statement. Poland manages to be sexist, intolerant and homophobic quite well on it's own.

That can be true about native Poles, and I'm sure it is, but doesn't make my statement less true. I didn't say it was "only" immigrants with these attitudes.

Your statement was to broad and thanks to it's broadness it was false at least in regard to Poland - rise of sexism in Poland as evidenced by tries to delegalize abortion and make women nothing more than living incubators can not be blamed on immigrants. Therefore you're blaming immigrants for what isn't their fault.

Also I mostly blame politicians - getting people all riled up is easier than trying to solve real problems.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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22-07-2017, 03:23 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(22-07-2017 02:55 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Your statement was to broad and thanks to it's broadness it was false at least in regard to Poland - rise of sexism in Poland as evidenced by tries to delegalize abortion and make women nothing more than living incubators can not be blamed on immigrants. Therefore you're blaming immigrants for what isn't their fault.

Shouldn't you be saying narrow rather than broad? My statement might have been narrow in that it did not encompass ALL the ways in which Europe, or Poland in particular, is becoming more sexist, homophobic, and intolerant. But it wasn't my intention to do so, didn't think I needed to. And yes, I am blaming immigrants for what is their fault, to the degree that they (I believe) are causing the rise; your example of the native's policy of making abortion illegal ADDS to that rise, by a little, more than a little, a lot, or a bunch, I don't care how much, it doesn't SUBTRACT from the migrant's contribution.

Is your understanding that the migrants are contributing nothing to the rise of sexism in Poland and Europe, not even a little?

And lastly, can these new arrivals to Poland be counted on to support or oppose the movement to make abortion illegal?

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22-07-2017, 03:42 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(22-07-2017 03:23 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Shouldn't you be saying narrow rather than broad?

Why?

Quote:My statement might have been narrow in that it did not encompass ALL the ways in which Europe, or Poland in particular, is becoming more sexist, homophobic, and intolerant.

You used broad brush to paint immigrants as responsible for rising intolerance and sexism, whereas it isn't the case at least in Poland. It wasn't to narrow, it was to generalized statement*.

Quote:But it wasn't my intention to do so, didn't think I needed to. And yes, I am blaming immigrants for what is their fault, to the degree that they (I believe) are causing the rise; your example of the native's policy of making abortion illegal ADDS to that rise, by a little, more than a little, a lot, or a bunch, I don't care how much, it doesn't SUBTRACT from the migrant's contribution.

My example shows that you overgeneralized statement is false - sexism in Poland is rising without immigrants. Edit: Though I can't really remember when it was low.

Quote:Is your understanding that the migrants are contributing nothing to the rise of sexism in Poland and Europe, not even a little?

Did I wrote something about Europe in general or I mentioned Poland? Also be serious. Alleged migrants standing behind clownish catholic organization wanting to force Polish women to be breeding machines?

Quote:And lastly, can these new arrivals to Poland be counted on to support or oppose the movement to make abortion illegal?

What new arrivals? Ukrainians being interested in working here? I'm sure that first thing they do will be taking position in regard to abortion "debate" Rolleyes


*One could also wonder if blame is cast in right direction.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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