Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
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22-07-2017, 07:06 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(20-07-2017 06:48 PM)TSG Wrote:  So anyway, let's get back to eating the body of Christ and chanting to magical beads like rational human beings.
Not to mention fucking little boys.
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22-07-2017, 07:08 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(21-07-2017 07:50 AM)Reducetarian Wrote:  Personally, I think that increasing religious extremism is the result of a rise in cognitive dissonance among believers caused by the global spread of knowledge, especially scientific.

The harder and more accepted the evidence against their beliefs, the greater the perceived threat, the greater the urge to desperately cling to those beliefs and entrench them into their psyche.
Yep -- the "backfire effect".
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22-07-2017, 07:50 PM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(22-07-2017 03:42 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(22-07-2017 03:23 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Shouldn't you be saying narrow rather than broad?

Why?

Szuchow I promise I will go back and do the line by line debate thing (such as it is) but so I can keep my sanity, and anyone reading this can keep theirs, could you do me the favor of answering this question:

Do you believe immigration into Europe from the Middle East and Africa is having a A) a positive effect on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe, B) no effect on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe, or C) a reduction on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe.

I just want to get my bearings here and make sure we're somewhat on the same topic before we keep murdering anyone who might be reading this. Again, I promise to respond to your line by line breakdown with my own line by line breakdown. Thanks in advance.
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23-07-2017, 01:04 AM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2017 01:51 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(22-07-2017 07:50 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Do you believe immigration into Europe from the Middle East and Africa is having a A) a positive effect on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe, B) no effect on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe, or C) a reduction on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe.

Judging by what I see in biased polish media immigrants are cause of not only those mentioned above but also floods and droughts so I'm somewhat skeptical of claims that immigration is reason for rising sexism, homophobia and intolerance (if those indeed are rising, vide Germany same sex unions). However I would be remiss in not noticing incidents in which immigrants are to blame.

Honestly your entire claims looks shabby to me as you seem to be blaming immigrants but conveniently forgetting about politicians who have much to gain by demonizing them. They could also be good scapegoat for local bigots who now can scream about how they tolerated minorities (or not minorities in case of sexism) and how this changed now when immigrants came.

Having said that intolerance against Muslims and Gypsies risen, p.12,13. [It's quite dated it seems]

In short I wouldn't be surprised if increased immigration would be cause of nationalist backlash resulting in rising level of intolerance, while at the same time I think there are too few of them to make impact on homophobia and sexism statistics - we have same sex union in Germany which don't really mesh with allegedly increasing sexism and try to delegalize abortion in Poland which is a sign of increased sexism but has nothing to do with immigrants. Edit: That does not mean immigrants are blameless but one should condemn individuals rather than group, or have good statistical backing if one want to condemn group.

Edit: Looking from Polish perspective immigrants seem to me as perfect tool for fear mongering politics masterfully used by polish politicians to enact authoritarian measures (so called anti terrorism bill) and increase support among population by playing "we will not take immigrants" card.

Edit 2: Maybe you will find this worthy of reading: [...]However, while these parties do indeed make common cause in blaming immigrants for Europe’s socioeconomic problems, they also use immigrants, and in particular Muslims, as a convenient repository for the gender inequality and homophobia that supposedly no longer exists or has been overcome in European society

Quote:I just want to get my bearings here and make sure we're somewhat on the same topic before we keep murdering anyone who might be reading this. Again, I promise to respond to your line by line breakdown with my own line by line breakdown. Thanks in advance.

We are on the same topic but probably not of the same opinion.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-07-2017, 07:57 AM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(23-07-2017 01:04 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(22-07-2017 07:50 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Do you believe immigration into Europe from the Middle East and Africa is having a A) a positive effect on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe, B) no effect on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe, or C) a reduction on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe.

Judging by what I see in biased polish media immigrants are cause of not only those mentioned above but also floods and droughts so I'm somewhat skeptical of claims that immigration is reason for rising sexism, homophobia and intolerance (if those indeed are rising, vide Germany same sex unions).

That's not very straightforward and isn't even a sentence. “Is reason”? You're “somewhat skeptical of claims that immigration is reason.” A reason? THE reason? A LITTLE of the reason? NONE of the reason? Would you indulge me in trying again? And try this: DON'T qualify your answer only through your judgment of "biased polish media," their claim that immigration is the reason for floods and droughts seems to really be throwing you a curve ball. Just tell me what you believe based on your full understanding of the situation.

Do you believe immigration into Europe from the Middle East and Africa is having a A) a positive effect on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe, B) no effect on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe, or C) a reduction on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe.


(23-07-2017 01:04 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Honestly your entire claims looks shabby to me as you seem to be blaming immigrants but conveniently forgetting about politicians who have much to gain by demonizing them.

I didn't at all set out to examine fully the complete causes for what I believe to be the slow death spiral of Europe. To point out one factor (mass immigration of people who generally hold illiberal tribal views; and it's a problem that doesn't go away just because you can name other problems) does not mean I am ignorant of other causes or don't understand them or believe them. In fact you have made the case for other factors quite persuasively.

To give another example: I believe the economy (European and world) is a huge factor destabilizing a lot of nations. The squeezing out of the middle class and a general division of people into rich and poor, automation, etc., I think these things are contributing to a malaise and general depression that leads people to cling to what they think are solid foundations, ie. “traditional” values and tribal outlooks. And this contributes to the xenophobia and scapegoating of immigrants that you referred. Now does my bringing up the economy invalidate the other causes we both mentioned? Should I think you narrow-minded or ignorant because you have didn't mention it? No of course not.

(23-07-2017 01:04 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  They could also be good scapegoat for local bigots who now can scream about how they tolerated minorities (or not minorities in case of sexism) and how this changed now when immigrants came.

Having said that intolerance against Muslims and Gypsies risen, p.12,13. [It's quite dated it seems]

In short I wouldn't be surprised if increased immigration would be cause of nationalist backlash resulting in rising level of intolerance, while at the same time I think there are too few of them to make impact on homophobia and sexism statistics - we have same sex union in Germany which don't really mesh with allegedly increasing sexism and try to delegalize abortion in Poland which is a sign of increased sexism but has nothing to do with immigrants. Edit: That does not mean immigrants are blameless but one should condemn individuals rather than group, or have good statistical backing if one want to condemn group.

Edit: Looking from Polish perspective immigrants seem to me as perfect tool for fear mongering politics masterfully used by polish politicians to enact authoritarian measures (so called anti terrorism bill) and increase support among population by playing "we will not take immigrants" card.

Edit 2: Maybe you will find this worthy of reading: [...]However, while these parties do indeed make common cause in blaming immigrants for Europe’s socioeconomic problems, they also use immigrants, and in particular Muslims, as a convenient repository for the gender inequality and homophobia that supposedly no longer exists or has been overcome in European society

I agree with most of this and appreciate you taking the time to go into great detail. I don't agree about the sexism thing and will get to that in your other post:



(22-07-2017 03:42 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  You used broad brush to paint immigrants as responsible for rising intolerance and sexism, whereas it isn't the case at least in Poland. It wasn't to narrow, it was to generalized statement*.

They are responsible. Not solely responsible, again, didn't think I needed to say that.

(22-07-2017 03:42 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
Quote:Is your understanding that the migrants are contributing nothing to the rise of sexism in Poland and Europe, not even a little?

Did I wrote something about Europe in general or I mentioned Poland? Also be serious. Alleged migrants standing behind clownish catholic organization wanting to force Polish women to be breeding machines?

This is very unclear to me. I sincerely want to understand your position. I do not believe the first thing newly arriving immigrants from Africa and the Middle East are going to do is mobilize for anti-abortion political action. But they're not bringing pro-choice, pro-womans rights attitudes (***TRIPLE ASTERIK DISCLAIMER: JERRY DOESN'T FUCKING MEAN ALL OF THEM, SOME OF THEM ARE SWELL!). I believe many of them are going to contribute (notice I said contribute) to an overall zeitgeist that is hostile to women, it's going to make it more uncomfortable for women in general to go about their business without worrying what they wear, being harassed, called whore, etc. (***TRIPLE ASTERIK DISCLAIMER: JERRY THINKS A LOT OF MEN THAT AREN'T IMMIGRANTS ARE ALSO GOING TO BEHAVE LIKE KNUCKLE-DRAGGING ASSHOLES! OH, AND JERRY DOESN'T BELIEVE ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE KNUCLE-DRAGGING ASSHOLES)


Quote:
Quote:And lastly, can these new arrivals to Poland be counted on to support or oppose the movement to make abortion illegal?

What new arrivals? Ukrainians being interested in working here? I'm sure that first thing they do will be taking position in regard to abortion "debate" Rolleyes
You're just brushing me off. In general, what attitudes towards women's rights and right to choice do you expect immigrants are bringing?
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24-07-2017, 08:00 AM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(21-07-2017 02:17 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  So leader of superstitious cult that majors on worship of executed Middle-Eastern guy lectures locals about superstitious worship of "death saint".

Makes sense....................Consider

Right! Christianity is a death cult. They should be giving a high-five to these dudes.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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24-07-2017, 08:33 AM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2017 09:11 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(24-07-2017 07:57 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  That's not very straightforward and isn't even a sentence. “Is reason”? You're “somewhat skeptical of claims that immigration is reason.” A reason? THE reason? A LITTLE of the reason? NONE of the reason? Would you indulge me in trying again?

No. I said what I wanted to say even if sentence is mangled.

Quote:And try this: DON'T qualify your answer only through your judgment of "biased polish media," their claim that immigration is the reason for floods and droughts seems to really be throwing you a curve ball. Just tell me what you believe based on your full understanding of the situation.

Just go fuck yourself. Who you think you are to dictate me how I should answer?

Quote:Do you believe immigration into Europe from the Middle East and Africa is having a A) a positive effect on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe, B) no effect on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe, or C) a reduction on the rise of sexism, homophobia, and intolerance in Europe.

Already answered this one. Don't like my answer? Think it too vague? Dodgy? That's tough.

Quote:I didn't at all set out to examine fully the complete causes for what I believe to be the slow death spiral of Europe.

This tells me all I need to know about you. Slow death of Europe and fixation on immigrants.

Quote:To point out one factor (mass immigration of people who generally hold illiberal tribal views; and it's a problem that doesn't go away just because you can name other problems) does not mean I am ignorant of other causes or don't understand them or believe them. In fact you have made the case for other factors quite persuasively.

I made case about other factors, you seem to be too focused on immigrants are intolerant thingy.

Quote:To give another example: I believe the economy (European and world) is a huge factor destabilizing a lot of nations. The squeezing out of the middle class and a general division of people into rich and poor, automation, etc., I think these things are contributing to a malaise and general depression that leads people to cling to what they think are solid foundations, ie. “traditional” values and tribal outlooks. And this contributes to the xenophobia and scapegoating of immigrants that you referred. Now does my bringing up the economy invalidate the other causes we both mentioned? Should I think you narrow-minded or ignorant because you have didn't mention it? No of course not.

I have no reason for mentioning every single thing that can result in increase of intolerance.

Quote:They are responsible. Not solely responsible, again, didn't think I needed to say that.

You think they are responsible and it is up to you to prove it.

Quote:This is very unclear to me.

Nothing unclear here. You just don't want to admit that your statement was too broad generalization to be true. This makes rest of your tirade pointless.

Quote:You're just brushing me off. In general, what attitudes towards women's rights and right to choice do you expect immigrants are bringing?

Varied.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-07-2017, 10:19 AM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
Ehh, I'm moving on. Maybe others can read what you wrote and think it's not as clear as mud.
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24-07-2017, 10:33 AM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(24-07-2017 10:19 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Ehh, I'm moving on. Maybe others can read what you wrote and think it's not as clear as mud.

Judging by contents of your posts I would say that you simply lack wit to understand what I wrote. But I suppose nothing else can be expected from someone believing in slow death spiral of Europe.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-07-2017, 10:55 AM
RE: Pope Francis battles Santa Muerte
(24-07-2017 10:33 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  ...but I suppose nothing else can be expected from someone believing in slow death spiral of Europe.

Sounds like you're a slave to wishful thinking. To believe that an unrestricted flow of immigrants that, on average, bring sexist, homophobic, and intolerant values into a society isn't a problem; anyone who says it is must be a hateful racist who wants to strafe refugee-filled pontoon boats with a Stuka. It obviously makes you feel very morally superior and you get to stick your chest out and Defend the Weak. Congrats.
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