Possibility of Eternal Return
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19-01-2013, 07:05 PM
Heart Possibility of Eternal Return
So this has been bothering me for a while now. I've been looking into the theory of eternal return and as a whole, its flaws, concepts etc. For the most part, I think it's possible given that if the universe oscillates and does so over and over again. This theory also does give atheists a peace of mind if they are scared to die. But one of the fundamental flaws I found during this time was the question of the brain afterwards. Since there are a finite amount of ways particles are bound to rearrange in the exact same way at some point given time is infinite. But should this happen, wouldn't "you" just be a copy of yourself? You would be an exact copy but not yourself. Or would it be that you just have no memory of the past life and the new experiences and memories change your life differently than the previous life? The brain is the same but the memories and experiences from before are simply gone. I think what I'm asking here is whether it's "you." It's hard to explain but would this new person be "you"? Like would you have the same conscious as you are aware as of right now or would it simply be a different person who is an exact replica in terms of atomic arrangement but with a completely different conscious as you are aware right now?
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19-01-2013, 07:13 PM
RE: Possibility of Eternal Return
(19-01-2013 07:05 PM)omegamoo Wrote:  So this has been bothering me for a while now. I've been looking into the theory of eternal return and as a whole, its flaws, concepts etc. For the most part, I think it's possible given that if the universe oscillates and does so over and over again. This theory also does give atheists a peace of mind if they are scared to die. But one of the fundamental flaws I found during this time was the question of the brain afterwards. Since there are a finite amount of ways particles are bound to rearrange in the exact same way at some point given time is infinite. But should this happen, wouldn't "you" just be a copy of yourself? You would be an exact copy but not yourself. Or would it be that you just have no memory of the past life and the new experiences and memories change your life differently than the previous life? The brain is the same but the memories and experiences from before are simply gone. I think what I'm asking here is whether it's "you." It's hard to explain but would this new person be "you"? Like would you have the same conscious as you are aware as of right now or would it simply be a different person who is an exact replica in terms of atomic arrangement but with a completely different conscious as you are aware right now?


There is no evidence that the universe oscillates.

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19-01-2013, 08:53 PM
RE: Possibility of Eternal Return
(19-01-2013 07:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-01-2013 07:05 PM)omegamoo Wrote:  So this has been bothering me for a while now. I've been looking into the theory of eternal return and as a whole, its flaws, concepts etc. For the most part, I think it's possible given that if the universe oscillates and does so over and over again. This theory also does give atheists a peace of mind if they are scared to die. But one of the fundamental flaws I found during this time was the question of the brain afterwards. Since there are a finite amount of ways particles are bound to rearrange in the exact same way at some point given time is infinite. But should this happen, wouldn't "you" just be a copy of yourself? You would be an exact copy but not yourself. Or would it be that you just have no memory of the past life and the new experiences and memories change your life differently than the previous life? The brain is the same but the memories and experiences from before are simply gone. I think what I'm asking here is whether it's "you." It's hard to explain but would this new person be "you"? Like would you have the same conscious as you are aware as of right now or would it simply be a different person who is an exact replica in terms of atomic arrangement but with a completely different conscious as you are aware right now?


There is no evidence that the universe oscillates.
And even if it did, the probability that the gazillions of particles would arrange in the same way again is so impossibly low, that there is no (1/??) number low enough to describe the impossible improbability.

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19-01-2013, 10:40 PM
RE: Possibility of Eternal Return
(19-01-2013 08:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-01-2013 07:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no evidence that the universe oscillates.
And even if it did, the probability that the gazillions of particles would arrange in the same way again is so impossibly low, that there is no (1/??) number low enough to describe the impossible improbability.
And it certainly isn't about the particular atoms, but about the pattern of atoms. Just where, exactly, is the memory of that pattern kept? Consider

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19-01-2013, 11:03 PM
RE: Possibility of Eternal Return
(19-01-2013 10:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-01-2013 08:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  And even if it did, the probability that the gazillions of particles would arrange in the same way again is so impossibly low, that there is no (1/??) number low enough to describe the impossible improbability.
And it certainly isn't about the particular atoms, but about the pattern of atoms. Just where, exactly, is the memory of that pattern kept? Consider
Exactly. Nowhere. It would have to happen randomly. Not gonna happen.

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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20-01-2013, 12:07 AM
RE: Possibility of Eternal Return
(19-01-2013 08:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  And even if it did, the probability that the gazillions of particles would arrange in the same way again is so impossibly low, that there is no (1/??) number low enough to describe the impossible improbability.
What about 1/Googolplex? Consider

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20-01-2013, 01:15 AM
RE: Possibility of Eternal Return
(20-01-2013 12:07 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(19-01-2013 08:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  And even if it did, the probability that the gazillions of particles would arrange in the same way again is so impossibly low, that there is no (1/??) number low enough to describe the impossible improbability.
What about 1/Googolplex? Consider
Interestingly enough, when dealing with the concept of eternity, even impossibly improbable numbers become probable and even inevitable.

So, what if it is 1/googolplex? What if it is 1/googolplex^2? What if it is 1/googolplex^googolplex?

No matter how big that denominator gets, eternity is bigger. Infinitely bigger. Also, space is big. Infinitely big. That's actually two infinities in one equation. Which is silly because infinity x2 is still just infinity. Something that only happens 1/googolplex times is not very likely to happen. But what if that is 1/googolplex per square parsec? And what if that is 1/googolplex per square parsec per billion years? Well, space is big, let's pretend the number of square parsecs in space is, say, googolplex/100. Now suddenly the chances of this even happening in 1 billion years is googolplex/100*googolplex, or 1/100. Still uncommon, but not impossible. But what about the chances of it happening in a trillion years? Now the chances are 10/1, or in other words, it would have to happen 10 times. Or 10,000 times in a quadrillion years.

And that quadrillion years is the teeny, tiny, itty, bitty tip of the iceberg of eternity.

Now, I don't know if the real chance is 1/googolplex, and I don't know how many parsecs there are in space, I'm just making up wild numbers to show that no matter how big we make the denominator, when you deal with infinite space and infinite time, that finite denominator becomes inconsequential.

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20-01-2013, 05:40 AM
RE: Possibility of Eternal Return
How do you even know that there actually is eternity or infinity?

Maybe everything is finite and we are such small specks in the whole of things that we just cannot see the limits. Yet.

Infinity and eternity are concepts that fill gaps in knowledge, they fill in for that which we do not know.

Imagine a dirt road that spans the earth and no vehicles of any kind, all you can do is walk along the road. You may well die thinking the road goes on and on and has no beginning and no end.

But really, it's just a loop. You just don't have the capabilities yet to determine that.

People used to think the earth was flat and infinite. Perhaps the concepts of eternity and infinity will be disproven some day.

Just saying.

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20-01-2013, 07:07 AM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2013 07:20 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Possibility of Eternal Return
The time has been calculated as ~ e to the e to the 10 to the 120 years/plank times/whatever to return to the current state, ~ 6E131 whatevers.




However, I strongly suspect we would hit some irreversible process along the way that prevents the universe we know from randomly jump back into our present state.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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