Possible explanations to MIRACLES that have happened
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04-04-2013, 08:03 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 08:08 AM by Matthew Laramore.)
RE: Possible explanations to MIRACLES that have happened
It's overly convenient that this church had the necessary tools, in this case being people not willing to be in the arms of intensive treatment....like say someone in a coma....present for a faith healing, but rather instead people unbeknownst to the rest of the community, conscious and aware, especially only out of pure example, flaunted in the line of sight of gravely influenced frady cats. I doubt highly that any one of the "healed" has gone so far to thank this church or their god beyond their healing to the point of consulting other ill individuals, visiting cancer patients in treatment and guiding them, relieving sexually abused children of the unearned guilt and manipulation enforced onto them from adult god band-aid wearers, or interfering with nature to stretch the criteria of such miracles to a global circumstance if the walls of this household even stretch that far.

Last year a woman died of hunger and starvation because of the advertised "miracle" of a man discovering that you don't need water and food to live but only sunlight, parents allowed their son to die by refusing him medical treatment because their minister said it was a good idea, what separates their undignified behavior from the people you have mentioned who have committed the same acts and through word of mouth proclaim miracle on 34th street, especially without the interference of their immune systems and anti-body agents. And not only can CPR, like Phaedrus mentioned provide a proper exclamation to dying and being brought back to life again, (as you only know about through....once more...word of mouth....) but other factors of similar circumstances that shine a similar happening are through unfortunate happenings such as...seizures, meningitis? Both I've personally had, and as a baby many illnesses over power your body to the point of the circumstances you mentioned.

And if this church is unwilling to provide the same service to you, as a non-believer or even as a believer of a different faith or church, then you can immediately eliminate any necessary explanations needed because regardless you'll still be exactly where you are now, curious and skeptical.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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04-04-2013, 08:18 AM
RE: Possible explanations to MIRACLES that have happened
(04-04-2013 02:21 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(04-04-2013 12:57 AM)GuiltyAngel Wrote:  OH MY! you're right. that made me pause for moment. if i really died, hmmm.. nothing. i cant recall anything. i do remember a moment though when i felt really weak and everything was getting dark. i think that was the "dying" moment. i think i was 5 years old during that time. but i don't remember anything after that moment. even when i woke up. nothing.

but damn. it's really hard for me to believe this. even though it happened to me. is it really possible to die for a few minutes then live again?

So you can ask yourself why, if there was a deity, he resurrected the dead you, clearly as a miracle to everyone else around, yet still refused to talk to you directly.

You have two choices:

(1) become an atheist and acknowledge that this was just an interesting example of how human body functions.

(2) you were in serious trouble with your god. This was quite UNLIKE your predecessor, Jesus.

Which one do you prefer?

I choose the first one. I guess you're right. There are still many things to discover in the world. And maybe phenomena like that are still some of the wonders our body can do that is yet to be discovered. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Thumbsup
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04-04-2013, 08:22 AM
RE: Possible explanations to MIRACLES that have happened
(04-04-2013 06:11 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Your "dying" experience sounds like a faint to me, rather than death. Also, it is possible to "die" and come back; it's called CPR.

Now that you've mentioned that, the feeling did quite resemble my fainting experience when I had a heat stroke before. Thanks! Thumbsup

p.s.
Thinking about it, I don't think you can die of tonsillitis, right? I mean, unless there's abscess that can block the airways then you can die but tonsillitis alone? I don't think so? What do you think?
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04-04-2013, 09:06 AM
Re: Possible explanations to MIRACLES that have happened
I think that as a child you were put through a prolonged and painful battle with a disease without medical treatment, because of your parents' religious beliefs. You blacked out / fainted at least once. Eventually you pulled through and survived the experience. Your parents, who were likely worried sick, swung the other way and praised god for your survival.

Over time, through retelling, exaggeration, and a subconscious need to rationalize their faith, the story of you blacking out grew into a story of you dying and being brought back by god's miracle.

They can now never go back on that, even if presented with evidence, because they would feel as if they were being accused of lying, and it would be an attack on a cornerstone of their faith.
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04-04-2013, 09:25 AM
RE: Possible explanations to MIRACLES that have happened
Faith healing can be a powerful placebo. All your feelings are from your brain, and if you can create a positive experience and replace anxiety with optimism and happiness, you can actually reduce the level of pain you feel, and stop feeling ill. Some people who could barely walk could, during a faith healing, gain the willpower to force themselves to walk. If you don't believe you can, and you stop when it hurts, you stop trying. If you believe you can do it, and you aren't feeling the same level of pain you usually do, you might be able to force yourself up. Though, if a person is paralyzed, even placebo won't help.

If you don't understand the effect, and believe that you have been cured, the effect can be long lasting in the form of a positive feedback loop: endorphins and dopamine released - reduces ill feeling - realize you feel better - be happy about it - endorphins and dopamine released. However, you remain ill, and if the illness will not improve without medical treatment, eventually you get worse and die, like the many seriously ill people who have after refusing treatment because they believed themselves healed.

Miracles are either due to a lack of understanding about the human body and nature, simple trickery, or the distortion of stories.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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04-04-2013, 09:29 AM
RE: Possible explanations to MIRACLES that have happened
T-cells are a small piece of the body's immune system also referred to as lymphocytes. Without getting into a lengthy science explanation, they are a type of white blood cell that assists in the detection, infiltration, and attack on foreign cells in your body.
Adrenaline is a hormone released by the adrenal gland during situations of high stress, increasing blood flow and heightening the body's awareness and ability to either stay and fight the source of the stress or flee from the situation. This hormone is the main chemical response for the body during the situations you hear about where a parent lifts a vehicle off of their child or dodges a train etc. The addition of adrenaline in the body through artificial means has been known to "revive" people especially after drug overdoses.
As for the dying experience you spoke about, my father collapsed a few years ago, without a pulse or breath. Minutes later, he began to draw breath and his heart was beating again. The doctors said that his heart was actually beating the whole time, but it was so faint, one would need medical equipment to detect it. What he has was a TIA, a minor stroke. While you may not have had a stroke, the situation could have been similar where you had a faint heartbeat. Just my thoughts...
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04-04-2013, 09:41 AM
RE: Possible explanations to MIRACLES that have happened
A "miracle" is the least probable event ever to happen. Therefore ANY other explanation goes in front of it in line. There is no evidence for anthing other than natural EVER to have happened. If a miracle happened, the laws of Physics, Chemistry, Probability etc etc would have to be suspended. Due to the Pauli Exclusion Principle, if one thing is changed, THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE is altered.



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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-04-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: Possible explanations to MIRACLES that have happened
Quote:A "miracle" is the least probable event ever to happen. Therefore ANY other explanation goes in front of it in line. There is no evidence for anthing other than natural EVER to have happened. If a miracle happened, the laws of Physics, Chemistry, Probability etc etc would have to be suspended. Due to the Pauli Exclusion Principle, if one thing is changed, THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE is altered.
Based on your description above, BB, there may be evidence for other than natural occurances, but they would be extremely rare. Your blanket statement, "There is no evidence for anthing other than natural EVER to have happened." is an attempt to proclaim special, omniscient (!) knowledge and also to PROVE A NEGATIVE! A more appropriate post would have been, "I'm an Agnostic. I've never seen or heard of evidence. It's unlikely."
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04-04-2013, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 06:28 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Possible explanations to MIRACLES that have happened
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04-04-2013, 11:03 AM
RE: Possible explanations to MIRACLES that have happened
(04-04-2013 12:17 AM)GuiltyAngel Wrote:  hey guys!

I just wanted to ask what do you think about the so-called "miracles" that had happened. you see, we were once a member of a christian church very famous because of numerous miracles that had happened like, the dead were alive again, the demon-possessed healed, the sickly who were almost dying INSTANTLY healed. we were a witness of all these and these were reasons why my parents have very strong faith about this god. but now that i'm an atheist, i want to know possible explanations of these things so if ever they come up in a conversation, i have answers. i'm a newly deconverted. so i hope you guys can help me.

in addition, my parents said it happened to me before that i died. they knew i was dead at home because i was no longer breathing and i was pale already. for a few minutes though. it was because of severe tonsillitis and in that church we used to attend, we were not allowed to take medicine or see the doctor so they said it was the cause. i really don't know how true but they say they were convinced that i died.

another thing, my mother before was in the hospital dying. it was around 1990's and she left hospital signing a waiver because the doctors wouldn't let her leave. she had a kidney disease. she went to that same church on wheelchair and very weak. she explained that while the church service was on going, she felt really cold wind enter her body and after that, she could stand, she could jump dance and shout!

we've been a witness of so many miracles like so. what do you think is the explanation for all this?
Mostly it's done with lies. A faith healer, for example, puts a plant in the audience who stands up out of a wheelchair at the appropriate moment to convince people they have been healed. If this is done several times, people begin to believe in the "power" of the faith healer. For some people, their "illness" isn't as bad as they perceive and as soon as they believe it can be miraculously cured, the inaccurate perception may be lost, replaced by the new belief. Then they too have been "healed". Pretty soon they tell others about this miraculous healing and more and more people believe it. Then some of those people wish they had a healing story to tell too and may invent one and lie figuring that, since faith healing is "real", what's the harm in lying to get others to recognize the "truth". And the cycle goes on...

In your case, you obviously didn't die. It's hard to say exactly what happened, if anything (because it's possible even that was a lie told to you), but whatever state you were in was probably mistaken for death. I don't know about your mother's case. It could be a lie because she really really wants you to believe in faith healing. Or it could be that her problem was more perceived than real. Or it could have been a misdiagnosis. There is obviously no way for me to know, but it wasn't a miracle.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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