Possible or impossible? this is the question!
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10-05-2016, 11:00 PM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(10-05-2016 09:40 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Skittles Wrote:IF god created humans "fully formed" then the god did a great job at making it appear as if we evolved from a common ancestor of the other apes.
Why would the god seek to "deceive" us with this evidence lining up in a cohesive evolutionary explanation?
I don't believe that God deceived us.
I believe that God didn't even try to tell us how exactly He created Adam's and Eve's physical bodies. This is not His message to us. His message is that He is the one who caused Adam and Eve physical bodies to be on Earth.
How did He do it? I don't know and I don't care at this point.
May be God showed to the author of the book(very ancient man) this picture:
long, long time ago let's say 4,600 mya earth was formed. Then God showed this man how He was PREPARING this earth for Adam and Eve.
apes evolved until they had physical bodies like we have now. They were intelligent but they were NOT spirit children of God. Could God use one of those bodies for Adam?
I also don't know where God created Adam. On what planet. The Bible is silent. What kind of bodies did they have? What kind of DNA did they have?
I don't know.
So,ancient man(author of the book) saw everything God showed to him and ask God:
- "Lord, how can I explain men about creation? I am not sure what words I can use"
- Lord:" Explain everything to the best of your ability and understanding. Just don't screw one thing. Don't forget to write that I am the one who caused these things to happen".

I accept any evidence of the evolution. I have a better idea how God was preparing everything for us. Thanks to the scientists for their hard work.

If God wanted to teach us science He would do it. But He was teaching us another important thing - how we can live with Him again and what we have TO DO that this can happen.
If we do not understand how God created things He doesn't care. If we have wrong ideas about creation(science), God doesn't care.
If His PROPHETS are wrong about His creation(science) God doesn't care.
This is NOT God's message.

Cheers

Hi Alla Smile
That was Stevil who wrote that to you. Tongue

I agreed with what Reltzik said in post #73.

Although I agree with Stevil too that it would appear god is trying to trick us by setting evolution in place. It's tough to believe both evolution and special creation at the same time. But I had trouble with the trinity back in the day so I just ignored it and moved on to something I could understand. It looks like you may be doing the same thing?

Cheers
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10-05-2016, 11:27 PM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
I have no problem to understand trinity. It is very easy to understand.
I have no problem with evolution. It is not revealed how God created things.

Cheers

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10-05-2016, 11:49 PM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
Stevil Wrote:So you have basically just thrown away the entirety of the Adam and Eve story.
No, I didn't.
Stevil Wrote:All you are saying is that the key message of the story has nothing to do with the beginnings of humans,
The key message of the story is fall of Adam and Eve. The key message is that Adam and Eve wouldn't be here if there was no God.
Details of the creation are not the key message.
So, because God did not reveal to us HOW He creates things, I have no problem with accepting evidence of evolution.
Many theists have problem with accepting evidence of evolution because they think that the book of Genesis(first chapters) tells them all about the creation. But it is not.
God revealed that all flesh has spirit inside. But not every spirit is created in the image and likeness of God.
Physical body of evolved ape can look exactly the same as body of Adam. But spirit of evolved ape is not in image of God. Spirit of Adam is in image of God.
That is why Adam is the first SON of God on earth. Eve is first DAUGHTER of God on earth.
This also can be God's key message.

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11-05-2016, 01:25 AM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(10-05-2016 11:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Stevil Wrote:So you have basically just thrown away the entirety of the Adam and Eve story.
No, I didn't.
Stevil Wrote:All you are saying is that the key message of the story has nothing to do with the beginnings of humans,
The key message of the story is fall of Adam and Eve. The key message is that Adam and Eve wouldn't be here if there was no God.
Details of the creation are not the key message.
So, because God did not reveal to us HOW He creates things, I have no problem with accepting evidence of evolution.
Many theists have problem with accepting evidence of evolution because they think that the book of Genesis(first chapters) tells them all about the creation. But it is not.
God revealed that all flesh has spirit inside. But not every spirit is created in the image and likeness of God.
Physical body of evolved ape can look exactly the same as body of Adam. But spirit of evolved ape is not in image of God. Spirit of Adam is in image of God.
That is why Adam is the first SON of God on earth. Eve is first DAUGHTER of God on earth.
This also can be God's key message.

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11-05-2016, 01:26 AM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(10-05-2016 11:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  The key message of the story is fall of Adam and Eve. The key message is that Adam and Eve wouldn't be here if there was no God.
Evolution explains why we have an abundance of life forms on earth. It explains where humans came from as a species. There is no need for a god to have created humans. Our physical form is explained by a very long stepwise progression harking back several billions of years to our great great great great ... grandparent who was a single cell organism and even before that.

There never was a first human. There certainly weren't a first two human pairing of Adam and Eve. We aren't all descendants of just these two people. There wouldn't be enough genetic variation for our species to have survived.

Regarding the fall, as I understand it Adam and Eve, once they ate from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, then and only then did they understand right from wrong and become ashamed of being naked (for as we are led to believe that nakedness is wrong).
Well, if they didn't know right from wrong before eating from the tree then how are they held accountable for disobeying god's demand that they not eat the fruit? They had no way of knowing that it is wrong to disobey god.
It would be like putting a lolly in front of a 3 month old baby and telling it that it is wrong to put the lolly in its mouth and suck on it. Then getting angry at the baby for sucking on the lolly. It would be irrational to get angry at the baby. Babies put things in their mouth, they do not know that it is wrong to do so. If you didn't want the baby to have the lolly then you ought to keep it out of reach.

If you are thinking that god wanted Adam and Eve to have the choice to follow or disobey him then realise that at this point they had no idea that it is wrong to disobey god. They do not yet know right from wrong.

Also, it makes no sense to consider that Adam's sins are inherited by his offspring. In the real world we lock up the person doing the crime, we don't lock up their children.


(10-05-2016 11:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Details of the creation are not the key message.
So, because God did not reveal to us HOW He creates things, I have no problem with accepting evidence of evolution.
Regardless of what the bible says, you should have no trouble accepting any knowledge discovered by the scientific method. It is a proven and trusted method of discovery. Scientists are very very careful. They are skeptical of each other's findings and put much effort into trying to debunk any findings.

(10-05-2016 11:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  God revealed that all flesh has spirit inside. But not every spirit is created in the image and likeness of God.
How can we verify this claim?

(10-05-2016 11:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Physical body of evolved ape can look exactly the same as body of Adam. But spirit of evolved ape is not in image of God. Spirit of Adam is in image of God.
That is why Adam is the first SON of God on earth. Eve is first DAUGHTER of God on earth.
This also can be God's key message.
So are spirits inherited? Is this how Adam's kids also have human/god like spirits? When Adam and Eve's children got married, did they marry people with human spirits or with ape spirits? are their kid's spirits human or ape or half and half? How can we tell? Today how can we verify that a human spirit is different to that of the Chimpanzee?

Or are we to choose to believe because it makes us happy to believe this?
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11-05-2016, 06:03 AM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
Sorry Alla, but Lilith was the first created woman in the fictional tale. She was made of dirt, just like Adam and equal to him.

I traveled back in time and wrote it myself.
Explain why this is impossible Smile

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-05-2016, 06:53 AM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(10-05-2016 11:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  God revealed that all flesh has spirit inside. But not every spirit is created in the image and likeness of God.

Please define what you mean by "spirit". I know several possible meanings of the word, some precise, some vague, but don't know which of those meanings you are employing, or if you're employing a new meaning I am not familiar with. In particular, please specify what functional difference there is in having spirit inside flesh rather than not having a spirit inside flesh -- the phrase is quite meaningless to me as it stands.

Also, please define what you mean by the image and likeness of God. What are the key characteristics of the image and the likeness? What's the difference between the image and likeness, or are the two words synonymous? If they're synonymous, why use both together like that? Isn't that redundant?

(10-05-2016 11:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Physical body of evolved ape can look exactly the same as body of Adam. But spirit of evolved ape is not in image of God. Spirit of Adam is in image of God.

How do you know this? Is there any source or evidence for this independent of interpreting the "holy" scriptures which, as we've just agreed, contain fables and/or metaphors that lots of people easily misinterpret as literal truth? Shouldn't this ease of misinterpretation make us wary of relying upon interpretations of this source? What justification would we have for trusting that any given interpretation is not a misinterpretation? If that is the only source, what method do we have of distinguishing between true interpretation and misinterpretation? How reliable is that method?
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11-05-2016, 08:13 AM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
I would also say that I don't think an all knowing, all powerful god has the ability to be creative.

I don't think such a being could create something that is flawed. Creativity is a process of discovery. It's that not knowing and then realizing how certain elements flow together.

Any god would only be content with nothing, because something would always be flawed.

God's cannot create because they cannot be creative.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-05-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(10-05-2016 11:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  I have no problem to understand trinity. It is very easy to understand.
I have no problem with evolution. It is not revealed how Chuck Norris created things.

Cheers

There isn't evolution. And the universe was created by the Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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11-05-2016, 08:54 AM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(10-05-2016 02:37 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 02:12 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Ahhhh yes, the Hapsburg family. Inner breeding at it's finest. The below Hapsburg family tree is about 5 generations. Note the loops in the family tree. And this family tree is less in- breed than the Adam and Eve family tree.

[Image: Charles_II_Inbreeding.jpg]


And this is what the Hapsburgs ended up with.



[Image: w2padM3.gif]

Never having had a scientific education I have always wondered why inbreeding produces poor results. It is how a farmer builds good stock, breeding back into the descendants the sires from before as many times as possible. SO why does it end up being bad for people?

When we propagate we pass on our genes. A series of codes that determinate the out come of the individual. Family lines also tend to have immunites to sicknesses that family has faced before. But also minor deformity that, that family has. This is often over looked because the introduction of a new genetic code cancels this out.

Here is a link on inbreeding in swine.
https://extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ns...f-fs4.html

The further apart your family line the "stronger" the baby that would be produced.

There is a species of lizard (Aspidoscelis) in the south west that self breeds. Everyone of it's species is female. And when their born they are already pregnant. Their largest problem is they're extremely pron to diseases. if one got sick with something it's breed never encountered before the who species would go extinct.

[Image: ASPARI-05b.jpg]

Now if two consenting individuals that we're related chose to have sex together. I don't know if I would say anything to stop them. HOWEVER! I would be strongly against them propagating.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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