Possible or impossible? this is the question!
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08-05-2016, 08:00 PM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(08-05-2016 07:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  
CosmicRaven Wrote:The Bible isn't very clear, huh?
Yep.

Cosmicraven Wrote:Well, what do you think the story means?
It means that God formed Adam's and Eve's physical bodies but the author of the book didn't tell us how exactly God did it.
The author of the book did not tell us what he meant when he wrote "the dust of the ground".
But when I read about evolution I start to have some ideas.

P.S. How can an ancient man explain modern science? in what words?

what is the dust of the ground organized from? do you know?

Another question: if there is God would He care how I understand science? If yes, why would He care?
You really have the answer.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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08-05-2016, 08:01 PM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(08-05-2016 07:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  ....................

So, we don't know what author of the book meant when he wrote that man was formed from the dust of earth. We have no idea.


I was thinking about this: there was a man who lived 3,400 years ago and he had knowledge from God that this God formed Adam's physical body.
God showed it to him. God showed to him some science. How could that man explain the science to those who lived in his times? How could he himself understand the science?
Did God WANT men to know this science from Him? Or did God want men to figure it out on their own because they have brains and ability and it is GOOD FOR MEN to figure things outs?

P.S. what is dust of the ground? what is this organized from?

The was no "author of the book". The texts were assembled by the editors and redactors. They combined a number of traditions. It is astounding that you are so ignorant of your own cult's texts.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-05-2016, 08:13 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2016 08:24 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
Okay, so you want to know what the original authors meant by it?

I'm far from an expert but I can do a bit of hunting around online. The early parts of Genesis (including 1 and 2) appear to have been adapted from pre-existing Mesopotamian polytheistic mythology. In particular, Genesis 2:4 onward (wherein we see the dust passage) seems to be from the Atra-Hasis, but adapted extensively by the Yahwist, an unidentified author or authors, probably the oldest author(s) of the Torah, who emphasized Yahweh as a personified warrior-god that physically walked the world -- essentially the Caininite god of War, akin to Ares from Greek mythology.

In the Atra-Hasis, humankind is created after a rebellion in Heaven, wherein several lesser deities and spirits cease to serve the higher gods. Rather than wage war against them, the gods replace them with new servants. The goddess Mami shapes a sort of egg or womb out of clay, mixes it with the blood of a dead god and the spit of the living gods, and eventually the egg hatches open and humanity is born. Here, the material of origin is clay.

The Yahwist version also seems to refer to some literal origin from the ground, in how this origin is the explanation for why Adam is named Adam. In Hebrew, the word for ground or soil is "adamah". Most of the Yahwist narrative stresses a connection between humanity and the earth, and a corruption of that connection, set right with Noah.

Of course, these are not the versions that appears in the Abrahamic religions. Textual analysis suggests that the Deutoronomist source (whoever authored the book of Deuteronomy and extensively modified a lot of what was written before then) was bent on eliminating all worship of other gods from the religion, either by conflating them with Yahweh or by depicting them as enemies (such as Baal and Asura, god of weather and goddess of fertility respectively). Consequently, much of what was attributed to multiple gods earlier on -- the creation of the universe, the creation of humanity, who wrestled with Jacob, and so on -- all got folded in to the single figure of God, though we can still sometimes spot the differences by which name or title is being used.

But you asked about what the original authors meant, and that appears to be that humans were essentially born from earth, specifically from a clay egg.
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08-05-2016, 08:17 PM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(08-05-2016 07:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  So, it is established that modern human physical body is a result of the evolution. It was very long process. It took billions of years.
Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.
But how does it show that biblical Adam and Eve are impossible?
As a theist I want to understand.

You want to understand? Really? OK.

The Genesis 2 account of the creation of Adam and Eve has a major problem. Yes I'm just picking one here. The entire human species originates from a single individual. Eve is a clone of Adam so she doesn't count as a second person for the purposes of genetics. Adam is literally fucking himself.

This is a profound lack of genetic diversity the likes of which no species on Earth has ever suffered. Father-daughter, mother-son and sibling-sibling incest will be inescapable. This sort of inbreeding has obvious and lethal consequences.

Christian apologists try and get around that by suggesting that Adam was created genetically perfect so there are no nasty recessive genes to lead to the monstrous offspring that are the typical result of incest. That doesn't work though because the result of the mating of two perfect clones will be a very homogenous population. No genetic diversity. There are only two of each gene on the planet and both of those are perfect.

Yet somehow the entire diversity of every race on Earth must spring from Adam's loins in a few thousand years. That requires an unbelievably high mutation rate. And that produces a lot more deleterious mutations than beneficial ones. Introducing that much genetic variation that rapidly would almost certainly result in sterility even without the inbreeding. Factor the incest in and the few offspring produced will be the sort of nightmares that can only be createded by multiple severe developmental defects.

Quite simply there is no scientifically sound mechanism for producing an entire species from a single individual using the timespans that are stated in the Bible.

You an muck about with your chosen interpretations of the meaning of "dirt of the Earth" until your head falls off. It matters not one jot. If any single part of the story is impossible then the whole thing is impossible.

For your use of the non-term "density of time" you are hereby condemned to an eternity in grade 11 phyics class.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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08-05-2016, 08:24 PM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(08-05-2016 07:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  What is the dust of the ground? Can someone explain it to me?

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

It is dust. From the ground. The Bible says so. Let me know which of those terms you don't understand.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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08-05-2016, 08:29 PM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(08-05-2016 05:40 PM)Alla Wrote:  So, I believe that God of the Bible exists. I believe that biblical Adam and Eve were/are real.
According to the Genesis God formed/organized Adam's body "of the dust of the ground".
Hmm, what is "dust of the ground"?

When ethics, science, and logic fail you, there is always semantics.

Or, more properly, there is only semantics. Sad.
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08-05-2016, 08:38 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2016 08:41 PM by Clockwork.)
Possible or impossible? this is the question!
The Hebrew in Genesis 2:7 is עָפָר֙ מִן־ הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה

It just means dirt. The editors of Genesis didn't explain how because they didn't know. And it's not possible. Evolution means a species derives from its predecessor species. A literal Adam & Eve is not possible with evolution. Species do not suddenly pop into existence. They must change over time into a later, identifiable different species.

There is an Abrahamic apologetic for Adam & Eve myth that tries to include science, but I'm not giving it here.
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08-05-2016, 09:03 PM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(08-05-2016 08:29 PM)julep Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 05:40 PM)Alla Wrote:  So, I believe that God of the Bible exists. I believe that biblical Adam and Eve were/are real.
According to the Genesis God formed/organized Adam's body "of the dust of the ground".
Hmm, what is "dust of the ground"?

When ethics, science, and logic fail you, there is always semantics.

Or, more properly, there is only semantics. Sad.

That and bending reason at right angles to reality.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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08-05-2016, 09:31 PM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
So, just another Alla Assumption Train?

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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08-05-2016, 09:43 PM
RE: Possible or impossible? this is the question!
(08-05-2016 09:31 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So, just another Alla Assumption Train?

Would you expect anything more? Blink

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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