Post evidence that Assad used chemical weapons here.
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27-08-2013, 07:14 PM
RE: Post evidence that Assad used chemical weapons here.
(27-08-2013 07:10 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(27-08-2013 05:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  I have no position on this; awaiting better evidence.

My comment was simply that that source can't be considered unbiased.

Chas, what do you think about rebels testing chemical weapons on animals and threatening to use them on people? Do you think this could implicate them as possible suspects in the recent chemical attacks?

TBH I and I anybody could of made that video. You cant deny that the syrian regime could of made that video themselves.

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27-08-2013, 07:34 PM
RE: Post evidence that Assad used chemical weapons here.
(27-08-2013 07:10 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(27-08-2013 05:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  I have no position on this; awaiting better evidence.

My comment was simply that that source can't be considered unbiased.

Chas, what do you think about rebels testing chemical weapons on animals and threatening to use them on people? Do you think this could implicate them as possible suspects in the recent chemical attacks?

As I said, I can't consider the source as unbiased.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-08-2013, 08:35 PM
RE: Post evidence that Assad used chemical weapons here.
(27-08-2013 07:14 PM)bemore Wrote:  
(27-08-2013 07:10 PM)I and I Wrote:  Chas, what do you think about rebels testing chemical weapons on animals and threatening to use them on people? Do you think this could implicate them as possible suspects in the recent chemical attacks?

TBH I and I anybody could of made that video. You cant deny that the syrian regime could of made that video themselves.

So the Syrian government needs to make fake videos to make Alqaeda seem crazy.


What the fuck is going on on this site?
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27-08-2013, 08:37 PM
RE: Post evidence that Assad used chemical weapons here.
(27-08-2013 07:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-08-2013 07:10 PM)I and I Wrote:  Chas, what do you think about rebels testing chemical weapons on animals and threatening to use them on people? Do you think this could implicate them as possible suspects in the recent chemical attacks?

As I said, I can't consider the source as unbiased.

But you consider pro-Alqaeda in Syria side to be unbiased?
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27-08-2013, 10:23 PM
Re: RE: Post evidence that Assad used chemical weapons here.
(27-08-2013 08:35 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(27-08-2013 07:14 PM)bemore Wrote:  TBH I and I anybody could of made that video. You cant deny that the syrian regime could of made that video themselves.

So the Syrian government needs to make fake videos to make Alqaeda seem crazy.


What the fuck is going on on this site?

Several people here understand how to be skeptical and not jump on assertions.

This video, cool. Evidence, post it please. (or what has been said before, quit being a hypocrite)

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-08-2013, 11:34 PM
RE: Post evidence that Assad used chemical weapons here.
Posted on August 24, 2013 by WashingtonsBlog :
Preliminary Evidence Indicates that the Syrian Government Did NOT Launch a Chemical Weapon Attack Against Its People

CBS News reports that the U.S. is finalizing plans for war against Syria – and positioning ships to launch cruise missiles against the Syrian government – based on the claim that the Syrian government used chemical weapons against its people.
The last time the U.S. blamed the Syrian government for a chemical weapons attack, that claim was was debunked.
But is the claim that the Syrian government used chemical weapons against its people true this time?
It’s not surprising that Syria’s close ally – Russia – is expressing doubt. Agence France-Presse (AFP) notes:

Russia, which has previously said it has proof of chemical weapons use by the rebels, expressed deep scepticism about the opposition’s claims.
The foreign ministry said the timing of the allegations as UN inspectors began their work “makes us think that we are once again dealing with a premeditated provocation.”

But Russia isn’t the only doubter.
AFP reports:

“At the moment, I am not totally convinced because the people that are helping them are without any protective clothing and without any respirators,” said Paula Vanninen, director of Verifin, the Finnish Institute for Verification of the Chemical Weapons Convention.
“In a real case, they would also be contaminated and would also be having symptoms.”
John Hart, head of the Chemical and Biological Security Project at Stockholm International Peace Research Institute said he had not seen the telltale evidence in the eyes of the victims that would be compelling evidence of chemical weapons use.
“Of the videos that I’ve seen for the last few hours, none of them show pinpoint pupils… this would indicate exposure to organophosphorus nerve agents,” he said.
Gwyn Winfield, editor of CBRNe World magazine, which specialises in chemical weapons issues, said the evidence did not suggest that the chemicals used were of the weapons-grade that the Syrian army possesses in its stockpiles.
“We’re not seeing reports that doctors and nurses… are becoming fatalities, so that would suggest that the toxicity of it isn’t what we would consider military sarin. It may well be that it is a lower-grade,” Winfield told AFP.

Haaretz reports:

Western experts on chemical warfare who have examined at least part of the footage are skeptical that weapons-grade chemical substances were used, although they all emphasize that serious conclusions cannot be reached without thorough on-site examination.
Dan Kaszeta, a former officer of the U.S. Army’s Chemical Corps and a leading private consultant, pointed out a number of details absent from the footage so far: “None of the people treating the casualties or photographing them are wearing any sort of chemical-warfare protective gear,” he says, “and despite that, none of them seem to be harmed.” This would seem to rule out most types of military-grade chemical weapons, including the vast majority of nerve gases, since these substances would not evaporate immediately, especially if they were used in sufficient quantities to kill hundreds of people, but rather leave a level of contamination on clothes and bodies which would harm anyone coming in unprotected contact with them in the hours after an attack. In addition, he says that “there are none of the other signs you would expect to see in the aftermath of a chemical attack, such as intermediate levels of casualties, severe visual problems, vomiting and loss of bowel control.”
Steve Johnson, a leading researcher on the effects of hazardous material exposure at England’s Cranfield University who has worked with Britain’s Ministry of Defense on chemical warfare issues, agrees that “from the details we have seen so far, a large number of casualties over a wide area would mean quite a pervasive dispersal. With that level of chemical agent, you would expect to see a lot of contamination on the casualties coming in, and it would affect those treating them who are not properly protected. We are not seeing that here.”
Additional questions also remain unanswered, especially regarding the timing of the attack, being that it occurred on the exact same day that a team of UN inspectors was in Damascus to investigate earlier claims of chemical weapons use. It is also unclear what tactical goal the Syrian army would have been trying to achieve, when over the last few weeks it has managed to push back the rebels who were encroaching on central areas of the capital. But if this was not a chemical weapons attack, what then caused the deaths of so many people without any external signs of trauma?
***
The Syrian rebels (and perhaps other players in the region) have a clear interest in presenting this as the largest chemical attack by the army loyal to Syrian President Bashar Assad to date, even if the cause was otherwise, especially while the UN inspectors are in the country. It is also in their interest to do so whilst U.S. President Barack Obama remains reluctant to commit any military support to the rebels, when only the crossing of a “red line” could convince him to change his policy.
The rebels and the doctors on the scene may indeed believe that chemical weapons were used, since they fear such an attack, but they may not have the necessary knowledge and means to make such a diagnosis. The European Union demanded Wednesday that the UN inspectors be granted access to the new sites of alleged chemical attacks, but since this is not within the team’s mandate, it is unlikely that the Syrian government will do so.

Stephen Johnson, an expert in weapons and chemical explosives at Cranfield Forensic Institute, said that the video footage looked suspect:

There are, within some of the videos, examples which seem a little hyper-real, and almost as if they’ve been set up. Which is not to say that they are fake but it does cause some concern. Some of the people with foaming, the foam seems to be too white, too pure, and not consistent with the sort of internal injury you might expect to see, which you’d expect to be bloodier or yellower.

Chemical and biological weapons researcher Jean Pascal Zanders said that the footage appears to show victims of asphyxiation, which is not consistent with the use of mustard gas or the nerve agents VX or sarin:

I’m deliberately not using the term chemical weapons here,” he said, adding that the use of “industrial toxicants” was a more likely explanation.

Michael Rivero asks:

1. Why would Syria’s Assad invite United Nations chemical weapons inspectors to Syria, then launch a chemical weapons attack against women and children on the very day they arrive, just miles from where they are staying?
2. If Assad were going to use chemical weapons, wouldn’t he use them against the hired mercenary army trying to oust him? What does he gain attacking women and children? Nothing! The gain is all on the side of the US Government desperate to get the war agenda going again.
As I type these words, US trained and equipped forces are already across the border into Syria, and US naval forces are sailing into position to launch a massive cruise missile attack into Syria that will surely kill more Syrians than were claimed to have died in the chemical attack.

Last time there was a chemical weapon attack in Syria, Bush administration office Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson said that he thought Israel might have given chemical weapons to the Syrian rebels to frame the government.
British MP George Galloway just floated the same theory in regards to the new chemical weapon attack.
Of course, we don’t know who carried out the attack, or what weapon was used.
But given the well-documented fact that the U.S. has been planning regime change in Syria for 20 years straight – and planned to use false ploys for 50 years – it is worth being skeptical until all of the evidence is in.
Indeed, many are asking whether this is Iraq War 2.0. For example, the Independent writes:

Pictures showing that the Syrian army used chemical weapons against rebel-held Eastern Ghouta just east of Damascus are … likely to be viewed sceptically because the claims so much resemble those made about Saddam Hussein’s possession of weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) before the US and British invasion of Iraq in 2003.
***
Like the Iraqi opposition to Saddam, who provided most of the evidence of WMDs, the Syrian opposition has every incentive to show the Syrian government deploying chemical weapons in order to trigger foreign intervention.
***
But the obvious fact that for the Syrian government to use chemical weapons would be much against their own interests does not prove it did not happen. Governments and armies do stupid things. But it is difficult to imagine any compelling reason why they should do so since they have plenty of other means of killing people in Eastern Ghouta, such as heavy artillery or small arms, which they regularly use.
***
The evidence so far for the use of chemical weapons by the Syrian army is second-hand and comes from a biased source.

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28-08-2013, 12:18 AM
RE: Post evidence that Assad used chemical weapons here.
(27-08-2013 07:11 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(27-08-2013 12:30 AM)BryanS Wrote:  Doctors without Borders has been cited as the main source in media reports providing the figure that of the 3,600 people who were admitted with "neurotoxic" symptoms in hospitals near the alleged attacks, on the order of 10% died at the hospitals of those apparent symptoms. Presumably others died before getting to the hospital.


http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/pre...ss-release


This doesn't tell us for sure who used them, but I'm convinced a chemical attack occurred. I trust doctors without borders as a non-political humanitarian group who would report things as they see them, and therefore give their observations more credibility than various governments' claims.

Bryan, Lying is when you leave out a significant part of an article to make it seem like something totally different.

The press release from doctors without borders mentions that members of doctors without borders is not able to go into Syria. A quote from YOUR link.

"Since 2012, MSF has built a strong and reliable collaboration with medical networks, hospitals and medical points in the Damascus governorate, and has been providing them with drugs, medical equipment and technical support. Due to significant security risks, MSF staff members have not been able to access the facilities."

THERE ARE NO FUCKING DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS STAFF IN OPERATING IN SYRIA.. IT STATES FROM YOUR OWN LINK.........MOTHA FUCKIN BURRRRRN THATS GOTTA HURT.

So there are no "doctors without borders operating in Syria yet they give supplies to and maintain in contact with doctors operating on the rebel side, meaning...the shit doctors without borders reports is pure hearsay at this point.

Remember when real atheists wanted proof?

This changes nothing I wrote. MSF is the main source being cited all over the news media. MSF demonstrates credibility be clearly stating their involvement with these hospitals. They are more credible than some of your Russian news sources. MSF has a longstanding mission that explicitly forbids political alignment or affiliation. I find their press release to be convincing. Notice, neither they nor I have made any statement blaming anyone just yet. Unlike you--you seem to know EXACTLY who did this. What a fracking hypocrite you are.
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28-08-2013, 12:21 AM
RE: Post evidence that Assad used chemical weapons here.
claims of use by Syrian government are coming from rebel held areas, there are no known non syrian rebel sources as to who carried out the attack.

Again, what reason would assad use chemical weapons? He is winning easily against alqaeda (rebels they are called in the west) and doesn't need them for military tactical purposes. The use of chemical weapons is also not even close to as destructive as modern conventional weapons that assad is already using. There is no reason for him to use them.

What reasons would rebels have in using them? hmmm lets see, public propaganda to show the west to push the west for more support and/or air support (no fly zone), this would give them a chance to stop retreating and start winning some battles maybe.

The rebels have much more to gain from a chemical attack than Assad does.

did anyone else notice that people rescuing victims of the attack weren't wearing masks, and neither were the doctors treating people. What chemical it was is also not specified.

No details on what chemical, and no details on who used them. BU BU BU BULLSHIT.
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28-08-2013, 12:30 AM
RE: Post evidence that Assad used chemical weapons here.
Israel will fall if Syria is attacked with ground troops and it still might fall depending on the level of bombing. If I was assad I would coordinate an invasion of Israel from two directions, Syria and Lebanon.

This is nothing like Iraq or Libya in any way. The shock and awe of the Iraq attack and the quickness of the attack of libya after protests happened didn't give their military enough time to prepare. The Syrian army has been preparing and fighting for 2 years.

Any ground invasion in Syria would be a joke at this point. The Syrians do not want rebels or anyone else fucking their country up which is why the rebels can't fucking hold any ground for any time, the people don't want to be ruled by alqaeda loons.

Networks of pro assad people, city and village militia are coordinating and communicating with assads military. This network of is essential and wasn't established in Libya or in Iraq for too long. Again, the practice of two years will be huge in the favor of assad if ground troops go in.

I have a feeling we won't be hearing from Shiranl too much longer.

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28-08-2013, 03:14 AM
RE: Post evidence that Assad used chemical weapons here.
(27-08-2013 10:23 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(27-08-2013 08:35 PM)I and I Wrote:  So the Syrian government needs to make fake videos to make Alqaeda seem crazy.


What the fuck is going on on this site?

Several people here understand how to be skeptical and not jump on assertions.

This video, cool. Evidence, post it please. (or what has been said before, quit being a hypocrite)

Hey Sheep, this isn't shown on your bullshit news sites. http://www.mrctv.org/videos/syrian-rebel...al-weapons
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