Post your hypocritical Theist WTF??! moment story
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18-06-2016, 11:35 AM
RE: Post your hypocritical Theist WTF??! moment story
(18-06-2016 11:26 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 11:22 AM)tomilay Wrote:  RocketSurgeon76,

This was a specific case. My choice of words at fault maybe. I agree that there are plenty of otherwise sensible believers.

That said, what am I supposed to credit theistic evolutionists with? Integrity?

I understand. Credit them with attempting to break their minds free of the shackles of literalism, and to understand science as a better source for knowledge than revelations/visions handed to us by prophets and priests.

And keep pointing out where they should focus harder on applying their capacity for reason, of course. Smile
To me, theistic evolution has a strong ring of pseudoscience to it. That's where I kind of "respect" a creationist, if only for honesty.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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18-06-2016, 12:18 PM
RE: Post your hypocritical Theist WTF??! moment story
(18-06-2016 11:26 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 11:22 AM)tomilay Wrote:  RocketSurgeon76,

This was a specific case. My choice of words at fault maybe. I agree that there are plenty of otherwise sensible believers.

That said, what am I supposed to credit theistic evolutionists with? Integrity?

I understand. Credit them with attempting to break their minds free of the shackles of literalism, and to understand science as a better source for knowledge than revelations/visions handed to us by prophets and priests.

And keep pointing out where they should focus harder on applying their capacity for reason, of course. Smile

Except for the minor detail that theistic evolution is not science. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-06-2016, 12:40 PM
RE: Post your hypocritical Theist WTF??! moment story
(18-06-2016 11:07 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 10:28 AM)tomilay Wrote:  A hardcore Roman Catholic...eats, breathes, poops, sleeps Magisterium. Aristotle. Thomas Aquinas. Ex-officio papal infallibility. St. Peter's key. The scapular. Novena. Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer. Opus Dei!

This person believing themselves more sophisticated than creationists. Has convinced themselves that theistic evolution is the silver bullet. Laughs at creationist notion that Adam appears one week after the big bang. Says instead, without batting an eyelid, that Adam was the end product of evolution directed by God.

When you ask them if Adam's dad and mum were human beings or just something else, you can be guaranteed they won't address that question at all. They pretend it was never asked. Every single time.

I have more respect for creationists than theistic evolutionists. Just because you have to lack integrity to espouse theistic evolution. You only have to be pretty thick, even if genuine, to be a creationist.

My wife is a Methodist, not a Catholic, but also an evolutionary biologist. She has talked about this subject with me... I think you might not be giving the Catholics who share a similar philosophy enough credit. Creation is, to her, an ongoing event, not a one-time magical meddling.

She accepts evolution 100% as-is, no Divine Influence needed. She accepts Genesis as allegorical, the creation myth of the ancient Hebrews, and not as a science lecture. Adam is the Hebrew word for "man" and, just as in English, it can mean one man or the whole of humanity, and in her version he is a personification of the first humans who developed enough intelligence (I'd say imagination, of course) to recognize their Creator and give thanks/worship to this being. She also acknowledges that the early Hebrews were polytheistic Canaanites and believes that the teachings of the Prophets were attempts to gain a better understanding of the nature of God, not in the numerous war-gods and nature-gods, but in a single, unified deity. She acknowledges that the prophets of Israel were part of the same Patriarchal, barbaric social order and allowed that bias to enter into their attempts to speak for this deity. She has even acknowledged that Jesus may be, as Richard Carrier has asserted, one of the "sons of god" angelic beings, who was sent to earth to show us the way more directly than the prophets could do. And yet, because she believes the teachings that his followers claimed of him, she thinks Jesus is the Way, The Truth, and the Life™, and thus the path to heaven, so she remains a Christian. [Edit to Add: Similarly, she feels that our discoveries about the nature of God are ongoing, to be sought after as we learn more as a species, and not a single revelation given directly by God to a handful of men to be forever disseminated to all mankind, unchanging. The Bible is a guide to previous philosophies of those who sought God, and not some secretary's dictation notes.]

From what I've seen, our member KingsChosen would agree with most of those statements, as well. And since most of my mother's family are Catholics, I've met many (sadly, not among my family) who are deeply skeptical of the idea of papal infallibility and the hoaxes that others accept as "miracles".

While I certainly agree that >90% of the Christians I meet are uneducated on the topics of science, history, and theology/philosophy, I don't think it's fair to say that they're all as you describe above, any more than it's fair when theists try to compare us to Stalin, or our own uneducated loudmouths/weirdos.

My thinking was similar when I was a theist. I "believed" in both God and evolution--that the biblical stories were symbolic and not to be taken literally. I believed God put the wheels in motion for evolution. All of it His doing.

What really shook me from this way of thinking was actually reading the entire Bible (not just the spoon fed *good* parts given to me by my church) and from watching the Richard Dawkins/Cardinal Pell debate. Also helpful was learning about *scholarly* biblical history and no longer accepting my church's reasoning/responses for God's barbaric actions against other tribes of people. And surprisingly, answersingenesis helped me as well Hobo On their website, they mention (and I'm paraphrasing) that it is imperative as a Christian to take Genesis literally as to think God would punish us and his son (executed in such a horrific manner) over a symbolic sin would be an extremely barbaric thing for God to do. Additionally, if original sin is symbolic, what is the need for Jesus?
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18-06-2016, 12:48 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2016 12:55 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Post your hypocritical Theist WTF??! moment story
Where to begin?

I like this gem from the Newt when responding to his mistress question (paraphrased) "How can you preach family values while you are cheating on your dying wife with me?" while impeaching Clinton for lying about his infidelities. "It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.” And he's on Trump's short list to be VP. Makes sense, they both are liars, serial philanderers, and had the same number of wives.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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18-06-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Post your hypocritical Theist WTF??! moment story
I think the one that gets me the most is when they call God righteous while discounting all the crazy shit he's done in the Bible.

I understand the Bible calls him righteous but rape, murder, starvation, wars, etc. etc. at his hand--ummm no not righteous behavior.

When you say to theists how can these actions possibly be classified as righteous????? The response is:

*We don't understand his ways, God knows what he is doing and it is always done out of love.

*These things were only done to people who did not love Him and/or disobeyed Him.

*These things were done due to the time period to "help" people (i.e. slavery, because you know, it's not the same type of slavery we are familiar with, it was a different type of slavery *eye roll*...and the *taking* of women as war brides because they wouldn't have survived otherwise, so it was really God looking out for them Shocking )

*God had to teach us all lessons so he had to be a bit more aggressive in the Bible so we would all know how we should behave and what the consequences were for not behaving. You see, God doesn't reaaaallly like to hurt people but sometimes they leave him no choice and when they disobey, need to be punished (like a parent punishing a child, people need to learn lessons). I don't know too many parents who starve their children, kill them, have them raped, sell their daughters into slavery, give them illness etc. all for disobeying said parent. If they do, they are swiftly brought up on charges. And these same people who give God moral leeway for his actions, would be appalled at the idea of these actions happening at the hand of a person in our society. But God gets a pass.
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18-06-2016, 01:39 PM
RE: Post your hypocritical Theist WTF??! moment story
The bit that I can't stand is when people are so deep into religion that they start talking about how they should dress nicely "to not be a stumbling block" and all that bullshit. That's when you know that they're faaar down the rabbit hole. They are so mind-fucked that they're prepared to give up their own basic desires - to dress up or to play around and drink a beer on occasion, or God forbid, to kiss someone under the stars... That's sad.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-06-2016, 05:31 PM
RE: Post your hypocritical Theist WTF??! moment story
(18-06-2016 01:39 PM)morondog Wrote:  The bit that I can't stand is when people are so deep into religion that they start talking about how they should dress nicely "to not be a stumbling block" and all that bullshit. That's when you know that they're faaar down the rabbit hole. They are so mind-fucked that they're prepared to give up their own basic desires - to dress up or to play around and drink a beer on occasion, or God forbid, to kiss someone under the stars... That's sad.

Is "to kiss someone under the stars" a euphemism for oral sex?

Because, if not, it should be!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-06-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: Post your hypocritical Theist WTF??! moment story
My wife a few days ago. We were talking about apologists:

Me: these people are either lying, ignorant, or both. Especially when people in the field have written responses telling them they are wrong and why.

Her: but you need to look past that and see the context of what they are saying. Facepalm

Me: sweetheart, if their support of a claim is wrong, their conclusion may be as well. Context is irrelevant.

Her: I just think that you always try see the fault in what they say.

Me: dear, if they are trying to support a claim with false information, information I took the time to vet, why should I believe them?

Her: bring on the ad homs

*sigh* It is always harder when you love them.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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18-06-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: Post your hypocritical Theist WTF??! moment story
(18-06-2016 11:07 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  the idea of papal infallibility

Like Bill Mahrer said, "It's an eternal truth that's 11 years younger than the escalator."

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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19-06-2016, 10:25 AM
RE: Post your hypocritical Theist WTF??! moment story
(18-06-2016 05:39 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  My wife a few days ago. We were talking about apologists:

Me: these people are either lying, ignorant, or both. Especially when people in the field have written responses telling them they are wrong and why.

Her: but you need to look past that and see the context of what they are saying. Facepalm

Me: sweetheart, if their support of a claim is wrong, their conclusion may be as well. Context is irrelevant.

Her: I just think that you always try see the fault in what they say.

Me: dear, if they are trying to support a claim with false information, information I took the time to vet, why should I believe them?

Her: bring on the ad homs

*sigh* It is always harder when you love them.
I now have this mental image of say, The Believing Christian forums, a mirror image of TTA, and a thread like "What is up with atheists". Your wife is telling the same story, from her POV and going "*sigh* It is always harder when you love them."

Story tax: I once went on a date with a woman who said she loved dinosaur fossils. Then got upset when I believed in evolution.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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