Potential Conversation With a Pastor - ADVICE NEEDED
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22-04-2010, 01:07 PM
 
RE: Potential Conversation With a Pastor - ADVICE NEEDED
(22-04-2010 11:46 AM)DrNekoDR Wrote:  
Quote:You are smarter than that. That is an atheist response not a thinking response. It's called compatibility, nothing to do with discrimination.

No what you are talking about is discrimination, its dismissing someone based on a belief of lack of it.. something I do not do.

It is the same as discrimination against gays, ethnicity, political view, family, nationality, take your pick.

Two people can have different beliefs and still be completely compatible
(22-04-2010 11:41 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(22-04-2010 09:41 AM)martinb59 Wrote:  Bible says not to be married to an unbeliever, and why would you?

HEY!

LOL!!

Fine if you want to call it discrimination. But the everyone discriminates, I would never go out with someone fat, we would have nothing in common, could she a great girl, yes, I call it compatibility.
(22-04-2010 09:48 AM)DrNekoDR Wrote:  See?... religion breeds discrimination.

Pick a nationality, body type, age, political view etc. that you don't find attractive and would not marry, if you call that discrimination, fine but don't limit it to religion.
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22-04-2010, 01:42 PM
 
RE: Potential Conversation With a Pastor - ADVICE NEEDED
Quote:Pick a nationality, body type, age, political view etc. that you don't find attractive and would not marry, if you call that discrimination, fine but don't limit it to religion.


Not getting married over physical difference is one thing, discriminating over nationality will have reasons to do with upbringing and international relations and politics (not loving someone based on these is foolish also).

Not being with someone for political reason (because he/she is a republican, democrat etc.) is EXTREMELLY foolish.

Not giving someone who loves and cares for you, and who’s company you enjoy and maybe even physically like over the notion of the existence of an unproven entity is, excuse me for the word, moronic and completely illogical. And also points to a great insecurity in ones self. And most important this is not a discrimination based on the persons desition.. but it is imposed BY religion.
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22-04-2010, 02:04 PM
 
RE: Potential Conversation With a Pastor - ADVICE NEEDED
Absolutely foolish, martin. And that's exactly what's wrong with fundies, always drawing a line in the sand on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong', telling people how to live their lives.

Stay out of it!
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22-04-2010, 02:08 PM
 
RE: Potential Conversation With a Pastor - ADVICE NEEDED
(22-04-2010 02:04 PM)supermanlives1973 Wrote:  Absolutely foolish, martin. And that's exactly what's wrong with fundies, always drawing a line in the sand on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong', telling people how to live their lives.

Stay out of it!

What line did I draw in the sand?
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22-04-2010, 06:33 PM
 
RE: Potential Conversation With a Pastor - ADVICE NEEDED
(22-04-2010 02:08 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(22-04-2010 02:04 PM)supermanlives1973 Wrote:  Absolutely foolish, martin. And that's exactly what's wrong with fundies, always drawing a line in the sand on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong', telling people how to live their lives.

Stay out of it!

What line did I draw in the sand?

Let's make one thing clear...I didn't say YOU specifically.

The line I'm referring to is the line of right and wrong, as deemed by the religious type. Some lines that have been drawn:

- homosexuality
- abortion
- interracial marriages
- interfaith marriages/relationships

Each one of these has been opposed by religious groups at one time or another. The list could probably be even bigger than this.
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23-04-2010, 10:02 AM
 
RE: Potential Conversation With a Pastor - ADVICE NEEDED
(22-04-2010 06:33 PM)supermanlives1973 Wrote:  
(22-04-2010 02:08 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(22-04-2010 02:04 PM)supermanlives1973 Wrote:  Absolutely foolish, martin. And that's exactly what's wrong with fundies, always drawing a line in the sand on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong', telling people how to live their lives.

Stay out of it!

What line did I draw in the sand?

Let's make one thing clear...I didn't say YOU specifically.

The line I'm referring to is the line of right and wrong, as deemed by the religious type. Some lines that have been drawn:

- homosexuality
- abortion
- interracial marriages
- interfaith marriages/relationships

Each one of these has been opposed by religious groups at one time or another. The list could probably be even bigger than this.

"Absolutely foolish, martin. And that's exactly what's wrong with fundies, always drawing a line in the sand on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong', telling people how to live their lives.

Stay out of it!"

Your above quote sure seems like you are talking to me. Yes the Bible says homosexuality is a sin no different than any other sin, so do many religions, so do many Governments, and to the best of my knowledge four states still prosecute homosexuals.

The Bible does speak about abortion directly, but yes killing humans is wrong.

Says nothing about interracial marriages and there many in my church.

Says nothing about interfaith marriages/relationships, but like I said yesterday about unbelievers and believers, why would you? If you are in a relationship and something changes, that's one thing, but to start off with an issue doesn't make any sense and I am sure marriage counselors of every kind would agree.
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23-04-2010, 10:14 AM
 
RE: Potential Conversation With a Pastor - ADVICE NEEDED
Quote:Says nothing about interfaith marriages/relationships, but like I said yesterday about unbelievers and believers, why would you? If you are in a relationship and something changes, that's one thing, but to start off with an issue doesn't make any sense and I am sure marriage counselors of every kind would agree.

This sounds like an assertion to me.

I know plenty of couples who got married and had and still have different faiths, and even believers with non believers. They are just able to have differences in something and still be together. Only someone with a completely closed mind could shut a good person/partner out of their lives over something as abstract as a deity.
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23-04-2010, 03:35 PM
RE: Potential Conversation With a Pastor - ADVICE NEEDED
Here is my two cents. If there is someone strong-willed and closed minded, then perhaps they should marry someone who offends them. I shouldn't marry someone who is deeply offended at the thought of an atheist, and would constantly be trying to convert me. If someone with a closed mind is unable to open up, then they should not marry who they hate.

(22-04-2010 09:41 AM)martinb59 Wrote:  Bible says not to be married to an unbeliever, and why would you?

This is where I take offense. A book should not dictate who you marry. If someone is not disturbed by the idea of a different faith, then they should be held back like that.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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23-04-2010, 10:05 PM
 
RE: Potential Conversation With a Pastor - ADVICE NEEDED
@Original poster.

Ultimately, I think it will come down to you. I personally would undoubtedly be drawn into a lengthy, possibly hours long, person to person debate; without to much difficulty. Why? Well, mostly because I like to engage in philosophical conversations. For instance, I have a friend that I often engage in similar debates with, whom is a strong, practicing Christian. Mind you, we are not vehemently going at one anothers throats here, but it can get rather heavy at times; yet we remain friends, as that is above anything else.

Long story short, each time we engage in philosophical debate, centered around Christianity and atheism, we still end up with her intellectually backworking herself, into a self refuting, illogical position. The catch, is that she willingly acknowledges this. She agrees that the position that she holds, literally does not make sense; but then goes on to continue using it, quite simply because she still retains her faith.

It's rather frustrating when we get to that point, for me. As, even though she admits the fault, she continues to disregard the evidence, or lack thereof, in favor of her preferred ideology. It's like dealing with a flat Earther, whom you have mathematically proven to, that the world is in fact an oblate spheroid; but then continues to state that the Earth is flat, after having agreed that it couldn't possibly be flat, in their very next sentence.

But I digress...

Dealing with interpersonal relations upon a topic such as this, from two opposing viewpoints, in a situation as you have described, is a rather delicate and touchy business. Obviously I can not know you, or your wife, or the kind of relationship the two of you are truly in. However, I can say that, given the observations that I have made in life, such a situation calls for addressing; as, leaving an infection unattended tends to lead to a rather high death rate.

As for talking with that preacher/minister(whatever you'd like to call them), my advice to you is this: Keep in mind, that their profession in life, is to make 'you' join their faith.

Other than that, I suppose it really just comes down to whether or not you feel like conversing with him/her on this subject. And yes, given what you have said about chocking up somewhat, while being in person, I would not recommend venturing outside of the written medium; until you are confident enough to stand your ground verbally. Have you considered public speaking courses?

Take care, and best of luck.
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26-04-2010, 08:01 AM
RE: Potential Conversation With a Pastor - ADVICE NEEDED
Thank you Ceryle.

The funny thing is, I am a decent public speaker. I don't necessarily enjoy it, but I am ok at prepared speeches and am just fine speaking to individuals under normal circumstances. It's the conflict/debate part of things that often gets me. It seems to boil down to knowledge at this point. I have read many essays, papers, and a few books. I am still reading and learning. But often I choke up when trying to bring these things up - or more specifically, allow things to get emotional instead of intellectual. That's probably because most of the discussions I've had regarding religion is with those close to me. Emotion quickly becomes a dominating factor in the conversation - and the topics just go all over the place. That is how many people I know tend to argue - they just start throwing out almost random bits of topics that rarely have anything to do with each other, and as I try to follow, I just get confused.

This would hopefully be an opportunity to engage in a conversation that I at least could manage to address one subject at a time, with someone who I really have no personal ties with. Except for the fact that the rest of my family seems to like this fellow (which often does bother me).

I'm still not sure how to start this conversation with him though.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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