Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
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06-12-2013, 12:47 AM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
Your 50 dollar wage you keep badgering over is just a hyperbole.....its clearly over the average wage of an American worker. i believe 50 an hour is over $90,000 a year.

yeah you have the proof,..just your cherry picked proof that fits your perspective on economics. other studies seems to contradict your studies.

http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/157-07.pdf

http://www.econ.yale.edu/conference/neud...er_272.pdf

i am not saying your studies are right or wrong or mine are right or wrong is just a matter of cherry picking.

"No. I've always said, at least in the US, BOTH conservatives and liberals do the same thing. Both Democrats and Republicans have the same monetary policy, which is the inequality gets worse no matter who is in charge. The only difference is that the Democrats complain about inequality and pay lip service to the issue. It's just a marketing pitch. So, I'm not blaming liberals more than conservatives for inequality, I'm calling liberals out for being hypocritical on this particular issue."

a politician who does not pander is a rare animal. It is easier to Democrat who has strong conservative leanings then to find a Republican with strong liberal leanings. Sure there are some RINO's such as Mark Kirk of IL or Susan Collins of ME. But they shake in their boots over the tea party challenge. Republican Susan Collins worries that the popular tea party Governor Paul LePage of Maine will challenge her in a primary. Republican Mark Kirk is considered to be a vulnerable to a tea party attack. The tea party need all of rural IL and the Chicago burbs to vote in lockstep to overcome the democratic Chicago residents vote.

" So I go back to my claim that if you are unable to recognize the harm, then you are not in a position to decide if the good outweighs the harm. Only people who can factor in BOTH the harm and the good can make informed comments."

where will we find such a person to comment who can figure the good and bad? There are plenty of experts with biases. Some people have a basis where the people should serve the economy, others feel the economy should serve the people. Many economist proclaim their allegiance of the "Chicago school" while others proclaim their allegiance to the "Keynesian" school. Most school of economics focus on the Chicago school, while others openly buck the system....i know, you are the only one capable to make informed comments......and other libertarians.


"Typical. It's never violence when the police do it. So back in the days of the Salem witchhunts, when the majority, through a democratic judicial process, convicted women of witchcraft and sent the police to arrest them and burn them at the stake, it's the women who were initiating violence if they resisted getting burned alive.

We will have to agree to disagree. In my book, violence is violence no matter who is doing it. If a bullet enters my body frankly I don't care if the guy pulling the trigger has a badge or not. To me it's all violence."

what is to protect me from your violence in your free for all world. just your interpretations of morals through a libertarian lens.
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06-12-2013, 08:11 AM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
ooh, boy. Just raise the wage and everything goes away. Such simpleton thoughts are amazingly ignorant. But then I turn around and see our president attempting to peddle the same bullshit to the sheeple. The incremental wages have to come from somewhere. Its this kind of economic fairy tale that is similar to lets just print money, no harm can come from it.
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06-12-2013, 10:58 AM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
Know what makes everything go away?

Gwyneth Paltrow.

For everything else, more thought is required.

Poverty is a criminal offense in America. Deal. I wanna move elsewhere, they want money. I'm thinking Canada, I go visit Stark Raving, we make beautiful weed together. But they want a credit report. They wanna know, are you going to contribute to society in a positive manner?" and I cannot fault them the question.

I don't agree with raising the minimum wage. More is not better. Quality trumps quantity; and quality comes from education. You wanna argue a place where teachers get paid more than doctors, K. I can follow that logic. Consider

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
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06-12-2013, 11:05 AM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(06-12-2013 12:47 AM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  yeah you have the proof,..just your cherry picked proof that fits your perspective on economics. other studies seems to contradict your studies.

But you're arguing against a strawman, and posting data to studies that prove my point!

Remember, I'm NOT against passing a minimum wage law. I _AM_ against passing it at the national level. And that Berkeley study proves it! They are NOT making the argument which liberals make that minimum wage has no effect on unemployment. Any serious scientist acknowledges it MUST have an effect, because otherwise you could raise it forever, and we know that's not possible. So the question is how much can you raise it where the effect on unemployment is minimal, or even statistically insignificant? If you raise it at the national level, you'll never know. If the economy tanks in 5 years and unemployment is through the roof, are the liberals and people working for minimum wage going to say: “Ooops, sorry. Our bad. We fucked up the economy.” Of course not! They'll blame it on something else, and everybody will point fingers, and nobody will know how much of an impact the minimum wage had.

However, IF you do it locally, then you have built-in control groups, which is how scientists and intellectuals measure the effects of something. And that's how that Berkeley study works. They look at local changes in minimum wage, trying to find 2 counties or states with similar economies, but different minimum wage, and see how the compare, and repeat this for control groups.

Nobody's disputing that there's a “sweet spot” where you can have a minimum wage without a severe negative effect on the economy. The difference is liberals arrogantly say “I know exactly what the sweet spot is. It is $12/hour. And it's exactly the same for the man living in San Francisco paying $2,000/mo rent, and it is for the guy in Mississippi paying $100/mo rent. Therefore, I decree the minimum wage for everybody is $12/hour.” Libertarians, however, admit that we do not know what the right minimum wage is, and that it probably varies from area to area. So we have the humility to let the local jurisdictions decide for themselves based on their local cost of living and other factors what is appropriate. Sure, one jurisdiction may go overboard and raise it too much. But, they'll see their economic indicators drop compared to the neighboring jurisdiction that didn't, and they can auto-correct.

So, please, if you're going to defend the liberal position, you must explain WHY it needs to be done at the national level, and how you know for certain what is the right minimum wage, and how you'll ever know what damage you're causing without control groups to compare against.

(06-12-2013 12:47 AM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  what is to protect me from your violence in your free for all world. just your interpretations of morals through a libertarian lens.

What protects you from violence is the government. Remember, libertarians are NOT anti-government. So saying Somalia is a libertarian paradise shows you have no clue what libertarians are about. Rather, libertarians argue the proper role of government is to PROTECT you from violence, as opposed to liberals and conservatives who argue the role is to INITIATE violence. So it's the other way around. In a libertarian world, you DO have protection from violence. In the liberal/conservative world, you do NOT. You're on your own. In a liberal/conservative world, when they say you need to be hauled off at gunpoint for smoking pot, there is NOBODY to protect you. You're on your own to have a shootout with the cops, who will bear down on you with incredible force until you're dead.

As far as the interpretations of morals through a libertarian lens, that lens is simple: Is something reciprocal? If not, then it's immoral. Yes, this lens is unique only to libertarians, but you'll see that most moral philosophers do agree with this.
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06-12-2013, 08:08 PM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
" Rather, libertarians argue the proper role of government is to PROTECT you from violence, as opposed to liberals and conservatives who argue the role is to INITIATE violence. "

if libertarians argue the role of government is to protect one from violence. who will protect me from your violence against me?.....the government, you, or am i on my own.

You offer no protection from non government entities who would initiate to inflict violence against me. I an not talking about being mugged on the streets ( i could be), but a merchant those sell me a chair that breaks when i sit on it. or a pharmaceutical company who well me a drug that is safe, but not effective. parhsps a car company that sells me a unsafe new car. the merchant just say...you are too fat, the pharmaceutical company says "well the drug did not hurt you. but the active ingredients are our company secret." the car company tell me "it passes our internal safety standards, but those safety standard are our corporate secret".
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06-12-2013, 09:39 PM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(06-12-2013 08:08 PM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  You offer no protection from non government entities who would initiate to inflict violence against me.

My recommendation is to cut back on the cool-aid and maybe try some reality pill supplements instead. It's really comical how liberals are the first ones to complain about how the corporate lobbyists buy off all the politicians (e.g. link) and that Washington is controlled by the corporations. BUT, then they'll turn around and insist these same politicians are protecting them against the very same corporations that fund their campaigns.

The reality is the government as it works now doesn't protect YOU from the corporations, it protects the corporations FROM YOU, and is the tool corporations use to coerce and exploit you. Let's look at your real-world examples.

You mention the government protecting you from drugs. I've asked several times now: How many drugs have the FDA approved that are NOT under patent? <crickets> See my post 151 about how Searle, a drug company, discovered their ulcer drug, aspartame, was very sweet and wanted to offer the drug as a chemical sweetener, but the FDA rejected it because studies showed it causes brain tumors. So Searle's CEO, Donald Rumsfeld, used his government connections to get a “friendly” to run the FDA, Arthur Hull Hayes, who headed the FDA for only 1 year, during which time he, big surprise, overruled the board and approved aspartame, and then immediately went to work for Searle's PR agency with a multi-million dollar signing bonus. You seriously think his goal was to protect you from Searle, and not the other way around? The fact is that in a libertarian system, all transactions must be entered into voluntarily, and when a company commits buries evidence so that you didn't enter the transaction voluntarily, that is fraud, and you can sue for damages. But try suing Searle? Try to subpoena the “secret” data that's been withheld. You can't. Because it's “FDA approved”, giving them immunity. Or, big tobacco used to run full page ads saying cigarettes were GOOD for your health, and protected you from lung problems, and denied there was any evidence to suggest otherwise, even though they all knew it was a lie, and even the surgeon general knew tobacco kills. From the 1950's until 1994, over 800 private parties tried to sue the tobacco companies for fraud. ALL OF THEM were thrown out, and the lawsuits weren't even allowed until 1998 when the public uproar was so great the government could no longer protect big tobacco, and even then the government screwed the public because they signed a master settlement agreement where the GOVERNMENT got $206 billion from the tobacco companies, in exchange they were given immunity and the public who they killed got jack shit. That could NEVER happen under a libertarian system.

It's like this with everything. Porsche knows the Carrera GT, with it's front-mounted gas tank, is a bomb on wheels, as we all saw on the news of Paul Walker's death. But Porsche doesn't need to disclose it because it's gotten government approval. In a libertarian system, consumers would be educated to never buy a car without getting a full-disclosure safety report from the manufacturer, and Porsche would HAVE to disclose such a fault because they would be sued for fraud if they withheld it and misrepresented the safety.

I stick by my original statement: "libertarians argue the proper role of government is to PROTECT you from violence [both from individuals, and from corporations, and from fraud], as opposed to liberals and conservatives who argue the role is to INITIATE violence [often on behalf of the corporations]."
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06-12-2013, 09:49 PM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
" Sure, one jurisdiction may go overboard and raise it too much. But, they'll see their economic indicators drop compared to the neighboring jurisdiction that didn't, and they can auto-correct."

that thought was disputed on the studies that a linked. your thought is just a race for the bottom or the lowest common denominator. That is one situation that people (those is disagree with you) don't want. without regard to the cost of living, wages will run to the lowest common-denominator. you seem to believe that the local level will stop the race to the lowest common denominator.

economics is a human construct not a construct of nature. as i said its hard to find an economic study that is bias free. its not surprising to find a economic study support the though of the authors. the Chicago school economists seem to have studies that support their view as the kensyian school economist seem to have studies that support their views.
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06-12-2013, 10:10 PM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(06-12-2013 09:49 PM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  " Sure, one jurisdiction may go overboard and raise it too much. But, they'll see their economic indicators drop compared to the neighboring jurisdiction that didn't, and they can auto-correct."

that thought was disputed on the studies that a linked. your thought is just a race for the bottom or the lowest common denominator.

Huh? Can you copy/paste what you're referring from that article? I don't see anything in there that says we need one national minimum wage, and I haven't heard any arguments in favor of it. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a "race to the bottom". Sure, if the minimum wage in Mississippi is $7/hour, and in New York it's $15/hour, do you think that means McDonald's won't open joints in NY because $15/hour is too expensive? If you're right, then having a NATIONWIDE $15/hour minimum wage would be a total disaster since that would mean McDonald's wouldn't open joints anywhere in the USA and we'd only see growth in Mexico.

Sure, Mexico has lower pages and that creates competition with the US (a lot of stuff is made in Mexico because of the lower labor costs). But, let's say Arizona remains one state with a very low minimum wage, $5/hour, comparable to a Mexican wage, sure, some factories may move from California to Arizona. But (a) that's better than if Arizona has the same minimum wage and the factory moves to Mexico, and (b) then Arizona's unemployment would drop as factories moved to Arizona, which would in turn cause wages to go up, until an equilibrium is reached. There is no equilibrium if the whole country is forced on one system.

Please be specific and let me know by what mechanism individual wage at the state level would be bad, but it's good at the national level. How do you see money/economy flowing?
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06-12-2013, 10:32 PM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
" Searle, a drug company, discovered their ulcer drug, aspartame, was very sweet and wanted to offer the drug as a chemical sweetener, but the FDA rejected it because studies showed it causes brain tumors. So Searle's CEO, Donald Rumsfeld, used his government connections to get a “friendly” to run the FDA, Arthur Hull Hayes, who headed the FDA for only 1 year, during which time he, big surprise, overruled the board and approved aspartame, and then immediately went to work for Searle's PR agency with a multi-million dollar signing bonus."

that the stuff that seems to upset liberals. it not the FDA is broken, it just filled with company shills. How can you expect honesty and objectivity when every company is doing their best to "game" the FDA and originates studies that only support their viewpoint. Like an economist originating studies that support his viewpoint The best companies manages to get their people to run the FDA for the ultimate "game". Yes the FDA is broken. The libertarian solution to the junk the FDA. and replace it with some libertarian thought. Others feel it better to restore the FDA to its true role and dismantle the special rules for companies, such as immunity from law suits. you want to throw out the FDA, most will be happy with throwing out the "friendlies" and company shills. Put some people who are honest and have no stake or "skin in the game" in the companies that petition the FDA for some approval.
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06-12-2013, 10:51 PM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
"ure, Mexico has lower pages and that creates competition with the US (a lot of stuff is made in Mexico because of the lower labor costs). But, let's say Arizona remains one state with a very low minimum wage, $5/hour, comparable to a Mexican wage, sure, some factories may move from California to Arizona. But (a) that's better than if Arizona has the same minimum wage and the factory moves to Mexico, and (b) then Arizona's unemployment would drop as factories moved to Arizona, which would in turn cause wages to go up, until an equilibrium is reached. There is no equilibrium if the whole country is forced on one system."

just skip the us state minimum wage musical-chairs and go to Sonora, Coahuila or Chihuahua.
just use nafta and/or some company influence in government to fix the economy in your favor and just move your factory to Mexico and use results of your influence on government to give you favored statue to send your goods to the states. little to no minimum wage, lax environmental rules, lax labor rules, etc etc in the mexican states.
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