Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
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19-12-2013, 09:14 AM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(19-12-2013 12:25 AM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  I know in your world, those with no extra income are just cut out.

Cheap, personal attack. I've already said I became a libertarian after living in Switzerland for years and seeing how well the system works and how they managed to eliminate poverty completely, and eliminate inter-generational dependence on government, so the poorest members of society still make a living wage and are self-sufficient.

So when you're defending the US system, arguing that it's better to have generations of people depending on welfare handouts and food stamps, don't try to take the moral high ground and say that I'm somehow callous for wanting to empower them so they're not poor in the first place.

(19-12-2013 12:25 AM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  its not just the government cuts and runs. in every company bankruptcy processing, the worker retirement funds go up in smoke. as the United Airlines bankruptcy.

Agreed. That's why I favor every individual's retirement go into his own personal retirement account.

(19-12-2013 12:25 AM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  Not every person will be light years ahead. I believe the purpose of SS was be sure their is money for ones retirement years even for those who cant afford to fund those years, even if it hobbles the system.

Nope. If you can't afford to pay into SS, you get ZERO from SS when you're old. The amount of money you get from SS is proportional to what you pay in, just like it is with private retirement. The difference is that SS gives a negative return on investment, whereas most private retirements give a 7%/year return. Now, it IS true that SS payments are progressive in that somebody who contributed 3x as much doesn't 3x as much. However, I've seen the studies showing that most poor people would STILL be better off with private SS.

(19-12-2013 12:25 AM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  stop using the SS trust fund to fund other stuff would go along way shoring up the fund.

On that point we agree. However, telling the government to stop robbing the SS trust fund is as useful as telling a fish to stop swimming. It ain't gonna happen. Politicians will always find it works better to pay for their spending by secretly using everybody's SS retirement instead of raising taxes. Which is why the pragmatist in me says the only solution is to take this out of the government's control. But I know it won't happen. The government will never give it up. And you guys will keep politely asking the politicians to stop spending everybody's retirement. And the current system will continue indefinitely.
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20-12-2013, 02:12 AM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(10-12-2013 11:59 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 11:53 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  BS the house problem was the least of the issues that cause this crash it was the elimination of Glass-Steagall and the sub-prime insurance scams the investors were running. Yes the loosening of regulations on homeownership did have unintended consequences but the irresponsible way the investors treated those "assets" is what caused the majority of the problem.

Not entirely, but mostly true. The investment banks over leveraged the risk. when everyone defaulted, AIG and other insurance companies couldn't manage the payout. Pooled risk works except for when EVERYONE realizes that risk all at once.

This is the fault of the investment banks, who bundled the mortgages into asset backed securities and sold off that risk to someone else.

It is refreshing to see someone succinctly describe the financial crisis instead of regurgitation of political talking points. Just as bad was the fact that AIG practically owned the market on the credit default swaps (investment insurance) used to insure against losses on mortgage investments.
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03-01-2014, 08:34 PM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(20-12-2013 02:12 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 11:59 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Not entirely, but mostly true. The investment banks over leveraged the risk. when everyone defaulted, AIG and other insurance companies couldn't manage the payout. Pooled risk works except for when EVERYONE realizes that risk all at once.

This is the fault of the investment banks, who bundled the mortgages into asset backed securities and sold off that risk to someone else.

It is refreshing to see someone succinctly describe the financial crisis instead of regurgitation of political talking points. Just as bad was the fact that AIG practically owned the market on the credit default swaps (investment insurance) used to insure against losses on mortgage investments.

I have an advanced degree in economics and was in the securities regulation for 10 years. I know the tricks and the scams and a lot of it the JUST the fault wasn't the bankers, or the brokers. It was the customer's greed as well.

I'm good at my job. But thank you for the compliment.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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03-01-2014, 08:40 PM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(03-01-2014 08:34 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(20-12-2013 02:12 AM)BryanS Wrote:  It is refreshing to see someone succinctly describe the financial crisis instead of regurgitation of political talking points. Just as bad was the fact that AIG practically owned the market on the credit default swaps (investment insurance) used to insure against losses on mortgage investments.

I have an advanced degree in economics and was in the securities regulation for 10 years. I know the tricks and the scams and a lot of it the JUST the fault wasn't the bankers, or the brokers. It was the customer's greed as well.

I'm good at my job. But thank you for the compliment.

Do you think that the bankers and brokers had no duty of care? Mortgages were approved fraudulently. Securities were sold fraudulently.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-01-2014, 10:28 PM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
Frank have you seen the story on the proposed minimum guaranteed income in Switzerland, what do you make of this. I also read that Switzerland's labor is 25% unionized what's your take on unions?

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04-01-2014, 08:04 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 08:20 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(03-01-2014 08:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 08:34 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I have an advanced degree in economics and was in the securities regulation for 10 years. I know the tricks and the scams and a lot of it the JUST the fault wasn't the bankers, or the brokers. It was the customer's greed as well.

I'm good at my job. But thank you for the compliment.

Do you think that the bankers and brokers had no duty of care? Mortgages were approved fraudulently. Securities were sold fraudulently.

No Chas. they weren't sold fraudulently. A lot of investors didn't understand what they were buying and that is the fault of both the banker and the consumer. You have no business investing in something you don't fully understand.

Some of the robo mortgages were definitely approved fraudulently, but there is nothing inherently wrong with selling off the risk. You do this whenever you buy insurance for anything. You can also buy insurance to insure against your instance increasing. That's a transfer of risk.

The fraud came in when banks, in order to do what's called an arbitrage, where they have one bet to win, and another bet to lose (It's also called hedging). Well people don't like to hear that you are recommending that you buy something meanwhile they also have a side bet that you will lose.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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04-01-2014, 08:19 PM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(03-01-2014 10:28 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Frank have you seen the story on the proposed minimum guaranteed income in Switzerland, what do you make of this. I also read that Switzerland's labor is 25% unionized what's your take on unions?

I know you are asking Frank, but I wanted to jump in about Unions.

Initially, they served a good purpose. To prevent explotation during the industrial revolution. But now, the union is like a parasite on the host of the employer...it would rather bankrupt the employer than take a paycut when the economy tanks.

Further, unions hurt the customers the employer serves. Especially utility companies. For example: there is a huge storm that knocks out power to the entire state. The utility company, in their contract with the union, promise to hire X% of union employees. So when surrounding states send in help for the utility companies or volunteers come in to help to get the power/heat back on for the customers, the utility company has to turn those people away because they would violate the union contract.

Unions, generally, don't appear to negotiate at all. They bully until they get their way, which makes them as bad as the employers that were the catalyst for the union forming way back when.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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06-01-2014, 09:11 AM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(03-01-2014 10:28 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Frank have you seen the story on the proposed minimum guaranteed income in Switzerland, what do you make of this. I also read that Switzerland's labor is 25% unionized what's your take on unions?

Switzerland is definitely losing its "libertarianness", although it seems a lot of it is due to external pressure. For example, a lot of wealthy French relocated to Switzerland to escape the stifling French taxes. So the French, rather than asking themselves why their infrastructure is crumbling with a 70% tax while the Swiss have the most pristine infrastructure in perfect condition funded with a fraction of the tax revenue, the French didn't try to copy, they just made all sorts of threats to block trade. The US threatened to stop allowing Swiss banks to transact here if they didn't drop their customer privacy laws. And so on. It's like when you have one bloated, inefficient company, and there's a leaner, more efficient competitor, rather than learning from the competitor and improving your system, you just hire a thug to blow up your competitor's headquarters. Switzerland has always been, like the US, heavily divided with lots of far-left liberals, as well as far right conservatives. The libertarian system of local autonomy was the compromise. But the efforts by other countries to smear Switzerland as a black sheep and to pressure Switzerland to become a bloated tax and spend police state like them, has caused a lot of the Swiss power these last 10 years to be concentrated in Bern (the capital) and emboldened the liberals. The minimum tax failed to pass, but it's a sign of this trend.

Regarding unions, I'm opposed to using force, either to break up the unions, or to give them special privileges. It's true that in practice they've often done harm in some cases, but I'd be opposed to the government coming in and breaking up a peaceful, voluntary association. The only exception, imo, is government employee unions. Government is granted a monopoloy. There is no competition. And taxpayers are forced to fund it. So it seems unreasonable that public employees should be able to engage in collective bargaining and screw the taxpayer, since the taxpayer already has no choice.
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06-01-2014, 09:24 AM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(04-01-2014 08:04 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 08:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  Do you think that the bankers and brokers had no duty of care? Mortgages were approved fraudulently. Securities were sold fraudulently.

No Chas. they weren't sold fraudulently. A lot of investors didn't understand what they were buying and that is the fault of both the banker and the consumer. You have no business investing in something you don't fully understand.

Some of the robo mortgages were definitely approved fraudulently, but there is nothing inherently wrong with selling off the risk. You do this whenever you buy insurance for anything. You can also buy insurance to insure against your instance increasing. That's a transfer of risk.

The fraud came in when banks, in order to do what's called an arbitrage, where they have one bet to win, and another bet to lose (It's also called hedging). Well people don't like to hear that you are recommending that you buy something meanwhile they also have a side bet that you will lose.

I beg to differ. I will try to find the article(s), but bundled securities that the brokerage firm knew were going to shrink in value were misrepresented and sold.

And mortgage lenders willfully misrepresented financial information both to customers and about customers.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-01-2014, 06:58 PM
RE: Poverty is a criminal offense in America OP/ED.
(06-01-2014 09:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-01-2014 08:04 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  No Chas. they weren't sold fraudulently. A lot of investors didn't understand what they were buying and that is the fault of both the banker and the consumer. You have no business investing in something you don't fully understand.

Some of the robo mortgages were definitely approved fraudulently, but there is nothing inherently wrong with selling off the risk. You do this whenever you buy insurance for anything. You can also buy insurance to insure against your instance increasing. That's a transfer of risk.

The fraud came in when banks, in order to do what's called an arbitrage, where they have one bet to win, and another bet to lose (It's also called hedging). Well people don't like to hear that you are recommending that you buy something meanwhile they also have a side bet that you will lose.

I beg to differ. I will try to find the article(s), but bundled securities that the brokerage firm knew were going to shrink in value were misrepresented and sold.

And mortgage lenders willfully misrepresented financial information both to customers and about customers.

It's hard to talk about bundled securities as a whole, when some broker dealers might have misconduct while others did not.

I just hate blanket statements like "the securities were bundled and sold fraudulently." Ok, some where. But some weren't.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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