Prayer And Theists Constantly Contradicting Themselves On The Subject
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06-01-2014, 03:44 PM
Prayer And Theists Constantly Contradicting Themselves On The Subject
I have found that theists constantly contradict themselves when it comes to the subject of prayer. For example:

Scenario 1: A theist prays to their god asking for his help in something (such as a sick friend or relative making a healthy recovery from an illness or surgery).
Result: The friend or relative makes a healthy recovery.
Explanation by theist: I prayed to God and he helped me by answering my prayer.

Scenario 2: A theist prays to their god asking for his help in something (such as a sick friend or relative making a healthy recovery from an illness or surgery).
Result: The friend/relative does not recover and dies.
Explanation by theist: It wasn't in God's plan.

Well, if it wasn't in God's plan, then what the heck is the point of praying? As George Carlin said: "Is God going to change his plan for every pissant with a prayer?"

What about the people who prayed just as hard as you (or even harder) whose relative or friend ended up dying? If prayer actually works, and you claim it worked for you, doesn't that mean that you are more special in the eyes of God, because he chose to help you, while others did not get his help?

I simply find the whole "God's plan" excuse to simply be a poor cover-all defense for "I have no explanation." I constantly find theists using both of these explanations whenever they see fit, even though they completely contradict themselves by doing so. One minute it's "prayer works, and it worked for me", then the next minute it's simply "it's not in God's plan".

What about God helping you with some minor thing, while there are far worse things happening out there, yet he doesn't help the ones in those situations? God helps Tim Tebow win football games, but he does nothing while some child is being raped somewhere? I think that makes his priorities pretty fucked up.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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06-01-2014, 04:01 PM
RE: Prayer And Theists Constantly Contradicting Themselves On The Subject
Dear Creator,

I, the Humblest of Your Creations, would like to take a moment to thank you for Creating the Universe. OK, so it's pretty much a requirement for being The Creator but Thanks Anyway! While I've got You on the line feel that I should draw Your attention to a few aspects of Creation that do not fulfill my every last whim and desire (see attached list, Appendices A through F). Kindly change Your Divine Plan accordingly.

Thanks in advance,
Bob
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06-01-2014, 04:40 PM
RE: Prayer And Theists Constantly Contradicting Themselves On The Subject
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Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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06-01-2014, 05:08 PM
RE: Prayer And Theists Constantly Contradicting Themselves On The Subject
Indian Atheist - Jewish prayers are not always "Quick & Easy" - they can last all day !
They are also not free but take a lot of time and that's precious time ! NOT FREE !!!
(All prayer absolves responsibility and don't fix much)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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06-01-2014, 05:14 PM
RE: Prayer And Theists Constantly Contradicting Themselves On The Subject
If prayer really worked then it would have the same status as criminal negligence laws.

Eg If I DID NOT PRAY and the relative died - there is a possibility that I would be responsible for that relatives death and it could be a form of malpractice by omission.
EG if the relative had chest pain and I did not call an ambulance (a form of omission) and they died I may be responsible - prayer should have the same status.

In the active mode if I pray for someone's death - and they died, would this not be murder ??? If they didn't die should I be prosecuted for attempted murder ?????

Seriously consider the above.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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06-01-2014, 05:16 PM
RE: Prayer And Theists Constantly Contradicting Themselves On The Subject
It's known as can't-lose reasoning. Someone has a YouTube video about this and praying to a jug of milk reveals the same results. There are three answers to prayer, yes, no and wait. It's quite pathetic and all of the double-blind studies prove prayer is hogwash.

Check out my atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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06-01-2014, 05:17 PM
RE: Prayer And Theists Constantly Contradicting Themselves On The Subject
I remember being taught that the Zombie Jesus answered prayers (the ones where you asked for stuff like "please cure my Grandma's cancer") in one of three ways:

1. Yes
2. No
3. Wait

Bit of a three card trick, really.

-- Max

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I am not afraid to go out of it that way.
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06-01-2014, 05:40 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2014 06:29 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Prayer And Theists Constantly Contradicting Themselves On The Subject
Dear Lord.

Thankyou Lord for all the abundant blessing everyday. Heart

Thankyou Lord for teaching me critical thinking skills, how to accumulate evidence and guiding myself towards brilliant logicians such as Bertrand Russell and Philosophers such as Karl Popper who taught me about falsification and spotting really bad theories and avoiding woo woo.
Dear Lord, thankyou for teaching me about evolution, speciation, DNA transmission, transposons and retroviruses which keep me fascinated with some of your ghastly & revolting designs - especially those Bot fly's flesh eating maggots which did deep, deep inside and go wiggle wiggle wiggle till we die.Hobo
Dear Lord, well done on your design of the Plasmodium falciparum protozoa and anopheles mosquito - you managed to create a human death count so high by this design that even the best human genocidal tyrants can never beat you - you truly are an awesome Lord at the current count of killing a child every 45 seconds from malaria fever - truly a remarkable achievement.
Dear Lord, there is so much thanks for the humorous people like Christopher Hitchings and George Carlin - how you inspire these infidels amazes me.Big Grin
Dear Lord, thank you for creating such a humongous universe that is so big it is just ridiculously utterly gianormously massive and I don't even have the right words to describe it - it really does make our pale blue dot of a planet disappear in those deep field hubble images into nothingness.....and speaking of the pale blue dot I cannot forget to thank you for bringing us Cal Sagan, what a beautiful soul.
Angel
Dear Lord, I also thank you for providing the necessary counterarguments, logic and rationality to combat poor argumentation from the likes of William lane Craig and other apologist missionaries. I so much admire the razor sharp knife of a good argument.Smartass
I also thank the Lord for your detailed description according to the apophatic ἀπόφασις, theologians who carefully define you by negation "via negativa" until you become the great unknown nothingness. Oh. I thank the great nothing for all that is.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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06-01-2014, 09:21 PM
RE: Prayer And Theists Constantly Contradicting Themselves On The Subject
(06-01-2014 03:44 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  Scenario 1: A theist prays to their god asking for his help in something (such as a sick friend or relative making a healthy recovery from an illness or surgery).
Result: The friend or relative makes a healthy recovery.
Explanation by theist: I prayed to God and he helped me by answering my prayer.

Scenario 2: A theist prays to their god asking for his help in something (such as a sick friend or relative making a healthy recovery from an illness or surgery).
Result: The friend/relative does not recover and dies.
Explanation by theist: It wasn't in God's plan.

Well, if it wasn't in God's plan, then what the heck is the point of praying? As George Carlin said: "Is God going to change his plan for every pissant with a prayer?"

Yeah, to actually picture a scenario where prayer works, you have to posit a situation that God causes or allows, that he will let play out unless you pray. If God was already going to heal the person, then the prayer is redundant. If he isn't going to heal them regardless, then the prayer is redundant. If he isn't going to heal them yet, but will if you pray, then by very definition, he is causing or allowing the problem for the sole purpose of wanting to be asked to fix the problem.

How fucked is that?


"God, why did I get cancer?"

"So you'd ask me to fix it. I have the biggest self esteem issues in all of creation. No need to thank me."
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06-01-2014, 10:29 PM
RE: Prayer And Theists Constantly Contradicting Themselves On The Subject
(06-01-2014 09:21 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  How fucked is that?

"God, why did I get cancer?"

"So you'd ask me to fix it. I have the biggest self esteem issues in all of creation. No need to thank me."
Even more fucked up is the fact that the concept of prayer itself suggests that you are unhappy with the world your supposed "Omni______ God" made for you.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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