Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
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02-04-2017, 06:25 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
Quote:Have you considered that receiving strength, comfort and peace might be merely the expected placebo effect acquired through the ritual of praying?

Fine. Let people get their placebos.

But in order for placebos to work you have to believe in a falsehood. I don't often vocalize my criticisms of prayer in real life but shit it's impossible not to wonder how the fuck they could possibly think there's really some kind of supernatural force listening and considering the merits. It's inconceivably stupid yet their ignorance is bliss, I guess.
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02-04-2017, 06:27 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 02:09 PM)Alla Wrote:  There are two things that neither FAITH nor PRAYER can do:
1) my faith and my prayer will not force anyone to choose the path of righteousness
2) my faith and my prayer will not force my will upon God. I can not force God to comply with my desires - no matter how right I think I am or how sincerely I pray.

That's not what Jebus said.
"You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
John 14:14
So he's a liar ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-04-2017, 06:32 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 06:27 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-04-2017 02:09 PM)Alla Wrote:  There are two things that neither FAITH nor PRAYER can do:
1) my faith and my prayer will not force anyone to choose the path of righteousness
2) my faith and my prayer will not force my will upon God. I can not force God to comply with my desires - no matter how right I think I am or how sincerely I pray.

That's not what Jebus said.
"You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
John 14:14
So he's a liar ?

Oh fuck. I was just praying yesterday that he would go back 2000 years in a time machine and get his ass nailed up. I must have changed history.
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02-04-2017, 06:33 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 01:40 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Mmmkay. How does prayer work with free will and the big ol "plan" that christians claim their god has. Somehow this seems like an oxymoron, or moronic ...whichever.

If god has a plan for everyone how is prayer supposed work. If he changes his mind and listens to a prayer then this means that god's plan was flawed. Then how is free will figured into the mix. How do christians answer this dilemma.

Something's amiss here. Dodgy

Yes, it's a problem. And the answer for some theologians, for example, Martin Luther, and John Calvin is to state that all that happens is caused by the express will of God and we have no free will. This raise the problem of evil. Both Luther and Calvin struggled with this. Both claimed that God is incomprehensible and gets no blame despite that.

This idea that all is predetermined and predestined by God is found explicitly in Essene writings, so it's not new or strictly Christian.

In Christian theology this is called providence. And is related to the doctrine of immanence. Huge amounts of ink have been spilled over the centuries by theologians arguing about this and trying to resolve the obvious logical problems
the idea of God's providence entails.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/c...er-16.html

CHAPTER 16. THE WORLD, CREATED BY GOD, STILL CHERISHED AND PROTECTED BY HIM. EACH AND ALL OF ITS PARTS GOVERNED BY HIS PROVIDENCE.

The divisions of this chapter are, I. The doctrine of the special providence of God over all the creatures, singly and collectively, as opposed to the dreams of the Epicureans about fortune and fortuitous causes. II. The fiction of the Sophists concerning the omnipotence of God, and the error of philosophers, as to a confused and equivocal government of the world, sec. 1ñ5. All animals, but especially mankind, from the peculiar superintendence exercised over them, are proofs, evidences, and examples of the providence of God, sec. 6, 7. III. A consideration of fate, fortune, chance, contingence, and uncertain events (on which the matter here under discussion turns).

----

Calvin on Providence of God.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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02-04-2017, 06:44 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 02:09 PM)Alla Wrote:  There are two things that neither FAITH nor PRAYER can do:
1) my faith and my prayer will not force anyone to choose the path of righteousness
2) my faith and my prayer will not force my will upon God. I can not force God to comply with my desires - no matter how right I think I am or how sincerely I pray.
What you are saying, then, is that imprecatory prayer -- requesting things from god -- is not taught in the Bible. However, it is.

It also teaches about what you might call meditative prayer -- where one submits one's will to god's and aims for acceptance of god's will rather than to influence it. The most you might ask of god from that perspective, is for him to make clear to you some aspect of his will that you're unsure of.

The latter is the only sort of prayer that actually makes logical sense if god already has a perfect plan and is working it, unless he deliberately does not fully work his plan without some sort of partnership with believers who have responsibility to ask him to do what he's already planned / decided to do. But that seems like a very roundabout way of executing a plan.

What it boils down to, I think, is that Christianity likes to keep open the possibility that one gets, so to speak, free swag by joining the club and participating in a satisfactory way. Evangelical Christianity has always suggested that any heartache, pain, suffering or confusion in your life is solved by becoming a Christian -- or at least a good one with sufficient faith and proper conduct. So asking god to "fix" whatever is "wrong" with your life and expecting "answers" is a fundamental value proposition of the faith. When the answers seem to come, god gets full credit. When they don't come, it's blamed on the believer not "doing it right", having secret sin, insufficient faith, etc., or on interference from Satan, secular society, etc. It's a pretty good bait-and-switch system for getting in the converts, upping participation, and marginalizing anyone calling bullshit on it. It also works well, psychologically, because it feeds into the widely accepted fallacy of the Just World Hypothesis.
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02-04-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
When I was a kid and first learned that stuff I had a good laugh. And they're the ones going to heaven. What a pleasant coinkydink.
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02-04-2017, 07:03 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
Bucky Ball Wrote:That's not what Jebus said.
"You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
John 14:14
So he's a liar ?
Yes, Jesus said this to His disciples.
He also taught His disciples one principle(concerning prayers): "Father, Thy will be done, not Mine".
In this context His disciples knew and know today that God will do for them anything, one more time - anything, as long as it is in our own interests and as long as it is not against His plan.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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02-04-2017, 07:09 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 06:21 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  
(02-04-2017 03:19 PM)julep Wrote:  CYA. IMO.

Christians constantly remind one another in some kind of weird pretzel logic that any outcome can be viewed as an answer to prayer. Prayer granted: god favors you. Prayer denied: god is testing you. Unable to determine whether your prayer's been answered: god's mysterious. God has a plan for you, but is it simple and linear no matter what you do or has god set up some kind of choose-your-adventure/flow chart thingie? Inquiring minds will never know, but my opinion is that Christians pray less to influence events and more for fear of what god may do to people who don't pray.

Bingo; any outcome is some proof that god has a plan to these people.

If you pray and something good happens, god has blessed you. If something bad happens, then it's a test/god is in control/it's part of his plan. If your loved one is healed, god has healed them; if they die, they are in a better place.

It's so much bullshit.

Yup. God is a one sized fits all situations....and he wins no matter what. A tsunami that kills 250 thousand people the day after Christmas? God is getting back at people for sinning. God is WINNING!!! He always wins.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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02-04-2017, 07:11 PM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2017 07:28 PM by Alla.)
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
mordant Wrote:It also teaches about what you might call meditative prayer -- where one submits one's will to god's and aims for acceptance of god's will rather than to influence it. The most you might ask of god from that perspective, is for him to make clear to you some aspect of his will that you're unsure of.
Yes, I need prayers to receive comfort, strength and directions.

I never ask God questions that start with word "why?" I know why bad things happen to all people.
But I always ask these kind of questions: "what do you want me to do today? "how can I help someone?", "who needs me?" I also ask Him to give me more understanding of certain things. I ask for wisdom. I ask to comfort me when I am hurt. I ask to give me strength to endure to the end.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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02-04-2017, 07:58 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 07:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  
mordant Wrote:It also teaches about what you might call meditative prayer -- where one submits one's will to god's and aims for acceptance of god's will rather than to influence it. The most you might ask of god from that perspective, is for him to make clear to you some aspect of his will that you're unsure of.
Yes, I need prayers to receive comfort, strength and directions.

I never ask God questions that start with word "why?" I know why bad things happen to all people.
But I always ask these kind of questions: "what do you want me to do today? "how can I help someone?", "who needs me?" I also ask Him to give me more understanding of certain things. I ask for wisdom. I ask to comfort me when I am hurt. I ask to give me strength to endure to the end.

So if you pray to god to "receive" comfort, strength and direction you're asking him for something.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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