Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
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02-04-2017, 08:18 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 07:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Bucky Ball Wrote:That's not what Jebus said.
"You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
John 14:14
So he's a liar ?
Yes, Jesus said this to His disciples.
He also taught His disciples one principle(concerning prayers): "Father, Thy will be done, not Mine".
In this context His disciples knew and know today that God will do for them anything, one more time - anything, as long as it is in our own interests and as long as it is not against His plan.

So Jesus is saying "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it...providing it's fits into my plans for you." They why ask for anything when he could just carry out his plans without playing mind games? Is it that he likes for his followers to beg?

I really don't understand.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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02-04-2017, 08:39 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 07:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Bucky Ball Wrote:That's not what Jebus said.
"You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
John 14:14
So he's a liar ?
Yes, Jesus said this to His disciples.
He also taught His disciples one principle(concerning prayers): "Father, Thy will be done, not Mine".
In this context His disciples knew and know today that God will do for them anything, one more time - anything, as long as it is in our own interests and as long as it is not against His plan.

So basically "ask me for anything.....as long as I want it to be done".

So when one asks to be healed of cancer, free from the pain and suffering, and god refuses, then that must mean god wants that person to suffer and die.
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02-04-2017, 08:43 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 07:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, Jesus said this to His disciples.
He also taught His disciples one principle(concerning prayers): "Father, Thy will be done, not Mine".
In this context His disciples knew and know today that God will do for them anything, one more time - anything, as long as it is in our own interests and as long as it is not against His plan.

That's not what he said.
You have absolutely no way of knowing what he said or did, or didn't say or didn't do.

I subbed at church today, (organ, for an ill friend), and when they read the gospel, I thought "Every line of this is over-laid with theology from a MUCH much later time ... and there is no possible way he said the words they "placed in his mouth".

"Now a man was ill, Lazarus from Bethany,
the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
Mary was the one who had anointed the Lord with perfumed oil
and dried his feet with her hair;
it was her brother Lazarus who was ill.
So the sisters sent word to him saying,
"Master, the one you love is ill."
when Jesus heard this he said,
"This illness is not to end in death,
but is for the glory of God,
that the Son of God may be glorified through it."
Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
So when he heard that he was ill,
he remained for two days in the place where he was.
Then after this he said to his disciples,
"Let us go back to Judea."
The disciples said to him,
"Rabbi, the Jews were just trying to stone you,
and you want to go back there?"
Jesus answered,
"Are there not twelve hours in a day?
If one walks during the day, he does not stumble,
because he sees the light of this world.
But if one walks at night, he stumbles,
because the light is not in him."
He said this, and then told them,
"Our friend Lazarus is asleep,
but I am going to awaken him."
So the disciples said to him,
"Master, if he is asleep, he will be saved."
But Jesus was talking about his death,
while they thought that he meant ordinary sleep.
So then Jesus said to them clearly,
"Lazarus has died.
And I am glad for you that I was not there,
that you may believe.
Let us go to him."
So Thomas, called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples,
"Let us also go to die with him."

When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus
had already been in the tomb for four days.
Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, only about two miles away.
And many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary
to comfort them about their brother.
When Martha heard that Jesus was coming,
she went to meet him;
but Mary sat at home.
Martha said to Jesus,
"Lord, if you had been here,
my brother would not have died.
But even now I know that whatever you ask of God,
God will give you."
Jesus said to her,
"Your brother will rise."
Martha said to him,
"I know he will rise,
in the resurrection on the last day."
Jesus told her,
"I am the resurrection and the life;
whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,
and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.
Do you believe this?"

She said to him, "Yes, Lord.
I have come to believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God,
the one who is coming into the world."

When she had said this,
she went and called her sister Mary secretly, saying,
"The teacher is here and is asking for you."
As soon as she heard this,
she rose quickly and went to him.
For Jesus had not yet come into the village,
but was still where Martha had met him.
So when the Jews who were with her in the house comforting her
saw Mary get up quickly and go out,
they followed her,
presuming that she was going to the tomb to weep there.
When Mary came to where Jesus was and saw him,
she fell at his feet and said to him,
"Lord, if you had been here,
my brother would not have died."
When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who had come with her weeping,
he became perturbed and deeply troubled, and said,
"Where have you laid him?"
They said to him, "Sir, come and see."
And Jesus wept.
So the Jews said, "See how he loved him."
But some of them said,
"Could not the one who opened the eyes of the blind man
have done something so that this man would not have died?"

So Jesus, perturbed again, came to the tomb.
It was a cave, and a stone lay across it.
Jesus said, "Take away the stone."
Martha, the dead man's sister, said to him,
"Lord, by now there will be a stench;
he has been dead for four days."
Jesus said to her,
"Did I not tell you that if you believe
you will see the glory of God?"
So they took away the stone.
And Jesus raised his eyes and said,
"Father, I thank you for hearing me.
I know that you always hear me;
but because of the crowd here I have said this,
that they may believe that you sent me."
And when he had said this,
He cried out in a loud voice,
"Lazarus, come out!"
The dead man came out,
tied hand and foot with burial bands,
and his face was wrapped in a cloth.
So Jesus said to them,
"Untie him and let him go."

Now many of the Jews who had come to Mary
and seen what he had done began to believe in him.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-04-2017, 09:36 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
Praying is nothing more than mental masterbation.
The prayer does nothing for anyone but the person praying feels better.
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02-04-2017, 09:42 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 02:09 PM)Alla Wrote:  There are two things that neither FAITH nor PRAYER can do:
1) my faith and my prayer will not force anyone to choose the path of righteousness
2) my faith and my prayer will not force my will upon God. I can not force God to comply with my desires - no matter how right I think I am or how sincerely I pray.

Point 2 makes prayer entirely powerless, which is ironic, as that's exactly how much power it's been found to have with scientific studies. Therefore prayer is effectively identical to talking to yourself in your own head.

Because it is just talking to yourself in your own head, but pretending like you're not. Drinking Beverage

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03-04-2017, 12:25 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 08:18 PM)Anjele Wrote:  So Jesus is saying "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it...providing it's fits into my plans for you." They why ask for anything when he could just carry out his plans without playing mind games? Is it that he likes for his followers to beg?

I really don't understand.


Yes, Heavenly Father can carry out His plan without my prayers. But if I want to participate in His work I have to know how I can help. The only way to know is to ask.
Also I can make any choices I want and they will not effect God's plan. Sometimes I don't know which choice would be good or the best for me and my family. The only way to know is to ask.

English is my second language.
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03-04-2017, 12:29 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 09:42 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(02-04-2017 02:09 PM)Alla Wrote:  2) my faith and my prayer will not force my will upon God. I can not force God to comply with my desires - no matter how right I think I am or how sincerely I pray.
Point 2 makes prayer entirely powerless,

Absolutely not. I can not force my will upon God but it is always His will to comfort me, to guide me, to warn me, to give me strength.

English is my second language.
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03-04-2017, 12:32 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(02-04-2017 09:36 PM)mythslayer Wrote:  Praying is nothing more than mental masterbation.
The prayer does nothing for anyone but the person praying feels better.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

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03-04-2017, 12:39 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
mythslayer Wrote:So basically "ask me for anything.....as long as I want it to be done".
Yes.

mythslayer Wrote:So when one asks to be healed of cancer, free from the pain and suffering, and god refuses, then that must mean god wants that person to suffer and die.
It is part of God's plan that we all can have an opportunity to LEARN both GOOD and EVIL - suffering and death including. We all suffer we all have to die.

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03-04-2017, 12:42 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2017 12:55 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(03-04-2017 12:29 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-04-2017 09:42 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Point 2 makes prayer entirely powerless,

Absolutely not. I can not force my will upon God but it is always His will to comfort me, to guide me, to warn me, to give me strength.

If prayer has no ability to do anything more than make you feel better, it's just as powerful as talking to yourself in your head. Praying to god is just talking to yourself, but also pretending that there is someone else listening to your thoughts besides yourself. It belies a creepy acceptance of authoritarianism.

But according to the Bible, and even supposedly by Jesus' own words, God can and does answer prayer. Of course when this is tested, when compared against observations, there is no discernible difference between prayer and no prayer. This incongruity has lead to centuries worth of people needing to make up excuses, apologetics, to explain the difference between what the Bible promises and what reality delivers. Prayers only ever seem to heal those who already believe, and have symptoms that can go into spontaneous remission. Prayer never regrows amputated limbs. One has to wonder why disabled veterans and true believers, those who lost a limb defending their country and their faith, are so unworthy of intervention. But according to entirely un-sourced and unverifiable Facebook memes, God is curing cancer all over the fucking place.

If prayer actually worked, how come every hospital doesn't have a prayer division?

If it's no more effective than talking to yourself, then why pretend you're having a conversation rather than a monologue?

It is a strange thing indeed when a god that supposedly cares goes so far out of his way to make his presence unknowable. Drinking Beverage

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