Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
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03-04-2017, 08:35 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(03-04-2017 08:18 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(03-04-2017 08:11 PM)LifelongAtheist Wrote:  I have found in my years of frequenting forums like this that one of the main differences between theists and atheists is that atheists are content with "I don't know," while theists have to have an explanation. That's not universally true, but much more often than not.

Theists are often told they are special, so they make things up. That bit about God making himself stupid is an excellent example of such creative rationalizing.
After all the years I've been frequenting forums like this I didn't think I'd ever see anything new, but I must admit that "explanation" was unique.
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03-04-2017, 08:56 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(03-04-2017 12:33 PM)kemo boy Wrote:  
(03-04-2017 12:39 AM)Alla Wrote:  Yes.

It is part of God's plan that we all can have an opportunity to LEARN both GOOD and EVIL - suffering and death including. We all suffer we all have to die.

You know god's plan?

I believe I do.

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03-04-2017, 08:58 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
Rachel Wrote:How do you know, then, if your prayer actually does work?
I don't know, I believe.

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03-04-2017, 09:01 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
Bucky Ball Wrote:They think that they can actually read the mind of a (their) creator of 600 sextillion stars
No, they don't. They don't think this.

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03-04-2017, 10:30 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(03-04-2017 09:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Bucky Ball Wrote:They think that they can actually read the mind of a (their) creator of 600 sextillion stars
No, they don't. They don't think this.

Then how EXACTLY do you know what you claim you know ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The thing is, these people suffer from low ambiguity tolerance, and they have a high need for cognitive closure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(psychology)

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-04-2017, 10:36 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(03-04-2017 10:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-04-2017 09:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  No, they don't. They don't think this.

Then how EXACTLY do you know what you claim you know ?

Prophets claim that God speaks to them and reveals them knowledge.
Nobody claims to read God's mind.

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03-04-2017, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2017 11:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(03-04-2017 10:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-04-2017 10:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Then how EXACTLY do you know what you claim you know ?

Prophets claim that God speaks to them and reveals them knowledge.
Nobody claims to read God's mind.

Yes dear. So you're a "prophet" now ?
All kinds of psychos claim all sorts of nonsense. Doesn't make ANY of it true.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-04-2017, 01:01 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
I could pray to God to ask for strength, to make me feel better, or whatever. It wouldn't work, because I wouldn't believe I'm talking to anyone. God apparently withholds his help from me just on that basis. Because I require evidence for my beliefs, I'm not eligible for support.

If someone does believe, then they receive exactly the kind of benefit you'd expect from the placebo effect, and nothing more.

So God "listening" gives exactly the same results to a believer as if God was not listening, or indeed had died or moved on to another reality. In other words, it does nothing. It adds nothing. If God is listening, he may as well not be. This a super bizarre system to try and defend, when the extremely obvious explanation is staring us in the face. Maybe God knew he'd die, or lose interest, and so gave people a way to get the goods without him needing to be around.

It is a weird idea that you can only get a benefit from this sort of thing if you believe in it. Of course, you can get the same benefits in other ways that don't require any such belief. You can meditate, or motivate yourself. I psyche myself up on a daily basis, to help me emotionally cope and physically be able to do what is required of me.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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04-04-2017, 01:32 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
Ironically I do talk to myself, often out loud, when I am self-motivating. And it works.

For anyone who isn't familiar with how powerful the placebo effect is, this is why there has to be a control group when new medications are being tested. There is an expected positive placebo effect in many instances, just because the people believe they are getting the help they need. The test then determines whether the actual effect of the medication provides more than this. If it doesn't, it may as well be sugar pills.

More on the placebo effect

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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04-04-2017, 02:49 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
I know I've posted this before, but the subject of this thread encourages me to repost it. It has been scientifically proven with blinded tests that intercessory prayer does not work as claimed by Christians, and in fact has been shown to (potentially) cause increased complications in the recovery of people having undergone open heart surgery.

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer

CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

And once again, this whole prayer-god-has-plan thing is basically a non sequitur requiring the as yet unproven existence of any gods to justify it. Until it's unequivocally proven that gods exist, then it's ultimately pointless talking about their powers or plans or will etc.

People who repeatedly "rely" on prayer to support themselves emotionally, solve a moral/ethical problem, correct some injustice, save a life, avoid an impending disaster etc invariably lack confidence in their own otherwise independent conclusions, the courage of their convictions, or lack some degree of self-esteem.

As with our recent devastating floods in Australia, I've lost count of the number of times I've read of people from all walks of life—especially politicians and theologians—offering their "prayers" in support of those killed and injured, and their families. What a fucking cop-out—why not get off your self-satisfied fat arses and actually do something to help?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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