Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
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04-04-2017, 02:52 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
Even the prayer itself, and the results, would be part of the plan.

It's an equivocation of course, because a "plan" is usually made in order to prepare the best method of approach to a problem, not to simply describe what will happen.

Why would a plan even be necessary to a being that already knows outcomes? Only by dropping this particular power can the power of prayer make any sense.

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04-04-2017, 03:03 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(03-04-2017 10:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  Prophets claim that God speaks to them and reveals them knowledge.
Nobody claims to read God's mind.

A prophet is defined as an individual who has claims to be in contact with supernatural or divine entities, and who speaks on their behalf, serving as an intermediary with humanity, and delivering newfound knowledge from those supernatural sources to ordinary human beings.

Thus far, there is not one single shred of evidence supporting the existence of "true" prophets. All of them, past and present, can be dismissed as liars, shamans, or fraudsters—all with self-serving vested interests.

Their bogus claims to "speak" with their purported gods are therefore baseless, and should be ignored by any/all rational persons.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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04-04-2017, 05:38 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2017 08:34 AM by unfogged.)
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(03-04-2017 08:11 PM)LifelongAtheist Wrote:  I have found in my years of frequenting forums like this that one of the main differences between theists and atheists is that atheists are content with "I don't know," while theists have to have an explanation. That's not universally true, but much more often than not.

It isn't that atheists are content with "I don't know", it is that they understand that making up an answer that sounds good is not a valid way to proceed. I don't think either atheists or theists are ever really content with "I don't know" but where a theist accepts an answer that sounds good to them and pretends that they do now know, an atheist accepts that there is no answer currently and waits for new evidence.

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04-04-2017, 09:48 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2017 09:53 AM by Alla.)
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
Robvalue Wrote:I could pray to God to ask for strength, to make me feel better, or whatever. It wouldn't work, because I wouldn't believe I'm talking to anyone. God apparently withholds his help from me just on that basis. Because I require evidence for my beliefs, I'm not eligible for support.
We know that there are books - scriptures. Let's say we don't know who wrote those books. But we do know that someone wrote them.
Those writers (whoever they are) were saying that when you believe, interesting things will happen.
For example, they were saying that when I believe I can be healed. According to some writers of those books Christ all the time was asking: "do you believe?".
Why? Why did He say this? Why can't the result be achieved without faith or belief? Did they(the writers whoever they are) knew about placebo effect?
So, let's say I am sick, or I am depressed. I don't have money for doctors and treatments. I don't have smart people around me who can give me good advice and comfort me. But let's say I have scriptures and I read that if I believe in Christ's healing power I will be healed and comforted.
Don't you think that the person who wrote these words gives me a pill that works and is free?
Placebo effect. Isn't it about faith or belief? and expectations(hope)?
If I believe in myself I can have power to do many things, may be I even can have power to heal my own body. May be I can have power to command my own body to heal itself.

So, if anything can have this effect, "placebo effect" then why do I need God of whom those writers wrote?
Who needs God if sometimes all I need is an objects to touch or a sugar pill to swallow in order to have positive results?
According to those writers faith in God in whom they believed is the tool for me to achieve things that an object(false god) or a sugar pill(false god) can not help to achieve.

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04-04-2017, 10:02 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
TO ROBVALUE

P.S. LDS teach one very interesting principle I have never heard any other religion teaches.
Here is this principle:
" If God didn't BELIEVE in His own power to organize new world He would never be able to organize a new world."
It is all about faith. Even Gods need it.

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04-04-2017, 10:46 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(04-04-2017 03:03 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Thus far, there is not one single shred of evidence supporting the existence of "true" prophets. All of them, past and present, can be dismissed as liars, shamans, or fraudsters—all with self-serving vested interests.
Their bogus claims to "speak" with their purported gods are therefore baseless, and should be ignored by any/all rational persons.

Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me:

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04-04-2017, 11:35 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(04-04-2017 10:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  TO ROBVALUE

P.S. LDS teach one very interesting principle I have never heard any other religion teaches.
Here is this principle:
" If God didn't BELIEVE in His own power to organize new world He would never be able to organize a new world."
It is all about faith. Even Gods need it.

Principle
a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning

Your foundational fundamental truth is a complete fictional fabrication that you say depends on faith, which again is believing something without evidence.

Principles require truth & a chain of reasoning.
What you labeled as a principle has neither.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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04-04-2017, 11:52 AM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(04-04-2017 05:38 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-04-2017 08:11 PM)LifelongAtheist Wrote:  I have found in my years of frequenting forums like this that one of the main differences between theists and atheists is that atheists are content with "I don't know," while theists have to have an explanation. That's not universally true, but much more often than not.

It isn't that atheists are content with "I don't know", it is that they understand that making up an answer that sounds good is not a valid way to proceed. I don't think either atheists or theists are ever really content with "I don't know" but where a theist accepts an answer that sounds good to them and pretends that they do now know, an atheist accepts that there is no answer currently and waits for new evidence.
Point taken. You expressed my thought better than I did.
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04-04-2017, 03:45 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2017 03:53 PM by Robvalue.)
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(04-04-2017 09:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Robvalue Wrote:I could pray to God to ask for strength, to make me feel better, or whatever. It wouldn't work, because I wouldn't believe I'm talking to anyone. God apparently withholds his help from me just on that basis. Because I require evidence for my beliefs, I'm not eligible for support.
We know that there are books - scriptures. Let's say we don't know who wrote those books. But we do know that someone wrote them.
Those writers (whoever they are) were saying that when you believe, interesting things will happen.
For example, they were saying that when I believe I can be healed. According to some writers of those books Christ all the time was asking: "do you believe?".
Why? Why did He say this? Why can't the result be achieved without faith or belief? Did they(the writers whoever they are) knew about placebo effect?
So, let's say I am sick, or I am depressed. I don't have money for doctors and treatments. I don't have smart people around me who can give me good advice and comfort me. But let's say I have scriptures and I read that if I believe in Christ's healing power I will be healed and comforted.
Don't you think that the person who wrote these words gives me a pill that works and is free?
Placebo effect. Isn't it about faith or belief? and expectations(hope)?
If I believe in myself I can have power to do many things, may be I even can have power to heal my own body. May be I can have power to command my own body to heal itself.

So, if anything can have this effect, "placebo effect" then why do I need God of whom those writers wrote?
Who needs God if sometimes all I need is an objects to touch or a sugar pill to swallow in order to have positive results?
According to those writers faith in God in whom they believed is the tool for me to achieve things that an object(false god) or a sugar pill(false god) can not help to achieve.

I don't know if they knew about the placebo effect at the time of writing. I wouldn't be surprised if they did. It's an age old con.

You don't need God at all, that is exactly the point. The belief itself is enough to supply the placebo effect. And it could apply to anything. If I truly believe that talking to my microwave is good for my wellbeing, then I will achieve a placebo effect by doing so. That doesn't mean the microwave is actually doing anything.

If you really are taking to God, and all he "supplies" is the placebo effect, then he's not doing anything. We have evolved this way, so that our beliefs can affect our bodies. If that's how he wants it, then he's doing a fantastic impression of something that doesn't exist and is an unnecessary assumption, which is always the case.

If you are actually seriously ill, the placebo effect is only going to help so much. You need proper medical help. Prayer can never replace this. If God actually wanted to, he could give us all pills which magically make us better. Or just get rid of illness altogether. But he doesn't, so he either can't, or he doesn't want us to be able to get better so easily.

So God is a very convoluted explanation for a simple phenomena which we already understand, in which his effects have to be argued down to zero making him effectively impotent.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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04-04-2017, 03:51 PM
RE: Prayer, free will and "god has a plan"
(04-04-2017 10:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  TO ROBVALUE

P.S. LDS teach one very interesting principle I have never heard any other religion teaches.
Here is this principle:
" If God didn't BELIEVE in His own power to organize new world He would never be able to organize a new world."
It is all about faith. Even Gods need it.

This is just an assertion of course, and a very strange one. I don't understand the importance of "faith" in these matters. I'm not even really sure what you mean by it. If it's justified confidence, then that is helpful to a person, but it doesn't change facts.

If it's unjustified confidence, then it's a bizarre concept which I can't possibly understand the point of. It's dangerous, in fact.

God needs faith in himself? Assuming he is aware of his own powers, and it seems impossible that he can't be, then it's automatic that he would have confidence in them. This is making God seem very human, that he could possibly be having some sort of panic attack and stop believing in himself.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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