Prayer: the Ultimate Selfish Conceit
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17-02-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: Prayer: the Ultimate Selfish Conceit
(16-02-2015 04:18 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(16-02-2015 01:04 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... So what if we're not looking at answered prayer but simply wanting to have God reveal His nature to us?

Then you must determine why you are invoking a god, or are looking for one. What does having a god around do for you that you can't do without?

Many of us don't need a god, and are repulsed by the very idea of a god. We don't feel any absence in our lives, no need to fill some "emptiness". We see nothing, and I mean NOTHING, that belief in a god contributes to a worshiper's life that cannot be met (and in many cases surpassed) by secular and humanist ideals, aims, endeavors and outlook.

Ask yourself a very difficult question: were it PROVEN that the god concept is truly nothing but wishful imagination, proven to YOUR SATISFACTION that the proof is sound, what would change about your life THAT WOULD MATTER? Would your family fall apart? Would you fall into a depression? Would you lose your career? Would lose your closest social circle?

I don't think any of those thing would happen, or anything else beyond a few days of coping with disappointment, but the essential elements that make life worth living wouldn't change at all.

But you tell us - what would your life lose if god were found not there and never was?

Are you being serious or spurious? Forget Pascal's Wager for the moment and say you have a 1 in 1,000 chance of finding Heaven. Or Hell.

Yes, I had a life before God took a central place in it. And? You do now also. But I'd love it if you or another TTA member would actually address my question.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-02-2015, 07:39 PM
RE: Prayer: the Ultimate Selfish Conceit
(17-02-2015 11:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... Are you being serious?

Absolutely serious.

Quote:... I'd love it if you or another TTA member would actually address my question.

I have. Twice. Twice I answered your question "What would I deem as an answered prayer" and I said Nothing. And explained why. Both times.

You then asked "So what if we're not looking at answered prayer but simply wanting to have God reveal His nature to us?"

I answered that by saying you have to explain why you're looking for that because I'm NOT looking for that.

Here you're asking if I'm serious. Yes, I'm very serious. I'd like to know what those who believe they need a god think they need a god for. You say a god has a central place in your life. That's significant. What is this god doing? Protecting you from harm? Guiding your decisions? Relieving you of certain anxieties?

What question of yours HASN'T been addressed here?
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17-02-2015, 07:55 PM
RE: Prayer: the Ultimate Selfish Conceit
(17-02-2015 11:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But I'd love it if you or another TTA member would actually address my question.

Shoe on the other foot now huh?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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17-02-2015, 09:14 PM
RE: Prayer: the Ultimate Selfish Conceit
(12-02-2015 10:24 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(12-02-2015 03:42 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... So I'll ask again what it is you are looking for regarding answered prayer, please.

I apologize my response wasn't clear enough, so I'll try again: There isn't anything that would persuade me it was a prayer answered - nothing I can imagine, and I can imagine quite a lot of outlandish things. Being able to correctly call the outcomes of random events would be beyond any of science's current understanding, but surmising it must be a god tampering is the LAST possibillity I would consider.

Here's another outlandish event: at 3:00PM Greenwich time everyone on the planet, including the deaf, hears, in their own dialect and idiom, an unmistakable spoken voice say "I am your Lord, you will mark my presence, heed my instructions, and obey". In a matter of hours it will be evident that the phenomenon was global, was not a local prank, and was therefore an apparent miracle, something beyond all present scientific understanding. Again, instantly concluding it was some god interfering in the affairs of mankind would be THE most foolish thing to do, THE most irresponsible, unethical, lazy, stupid thing to conclude. An event like that would compel a massive crash research program into just what heretofore unknown ripple of nature's fabric that was SO WE DON'T TRIP OVER IT NEXT TIME.

Now, at risk of possibly confusing you, there might be some event I cannot imagine that were it to take place, I might give the god possibility some measure of probability. But to do so would REQUIRE "god" being significantly more defined than it has ever been in terms of its characteristics and capabilities.

For now, NOTHING I can imagine would lead me to think "Oh, that was a prayer answered".

And I think those who DO think things are prayers answered are scientifically irresponsible, ending their inquiries at the first speculation and not even beginning to conduct further investigation into what happened.

Awesome post Ak, out of all of the almost infinite explanations for events that occur in the universe, the god explanation is one of the worst default positions. It's simply a resignation of the intellect to understand those events.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-02-2015, 01:37 PM
RE: Prayer: the Ultimate Selfish Conceit
(17-02-2015 07:39 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 11:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... Are you being serious?

Absolutely serious.

Quote:... I'd love it if you or another TTA member would actually address my question.

I have. Twice. Twice I answered your question "What would I deem as an answered prayer" and I said Nothing. And explained why. Both times.

You then asked "So what if we're not looking at answered prayer but simply wanting to have God reveal His nature to us?"

I answered that by saying you have to explain why you're looking for that because I'm NOT looking for that.

Here you're asking if I'm serious. Yes, I'm very serious. I'd like to know what those who believe they need a god think they need a god for. You say a god has a central place in your life. That's significant. What is this god doing? Protecting you from harm? Guiding your decisions? Relieving you of certain anxieties?

What question of yours HASN'T been addressed here?

If your answer is there is no way to prove answered prayer than I hardly need ask why you won't want God to reveal Himself to you. You are an apatheist, I take it. Sorry to hear that.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-02-2015, 01:38 PM
RE: Prayer: the Ultimate Selfish Conceit
(17-02-2015 09:14 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(12-02-2015 10:24 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  I apologize my response wasn't clear enough, so I'll try again: There isn't anything that would persuade me it was a prayer answered - nothing I can imagine, and I can imagine quite a lot of outlandish things. Being able to correctly call the outcomes of random events would be beyond any of science's current understanding, but surmising it must be a god tampering is the LAST possibillity I would consider.

Here's another outlandish event: at 3:00PM Greenwich time everyone on the planet, including the deaf, hears, in their own dialect and idiom, an unmistakable spoken voice say "I am your Lord, you will mark my presence, heed my instructions, and obey". In a matter of hours it will be evident that the phenomenon was global, was not a local prank, and was therefore an apparent miracle, something beyond all present scientific understanding. Again, instantly concluding it was some god interfering in the affairs of mankind would be THE most foolish thing to do, THE most irresponsible, unethical, lazy, stupid thing to conclude. An event like that would compel a massive crash research program into just what heretofore unknown ripple of nature's fabric that was SO WE DON'T TRIP OVER IT NEXT TIME.

Now, at risk of possibly confusing you, there might be some event I cannot imagine that were it to take place, I might give the god possibility some measure of probability. But to do so would REQUIRE "god" being significantly more defined than it has ever been in terms of its characteristics and capabilities.

For now, NOTHING I can imagine would lead me to think "Oh, that was a prayer answered".

And I think those who DO think things are prayers answered are scientifically irresponsible, ending their inquiries at the first speculation and not even beginning to conduct further investigation into what happened.

Awesome post Ak, out of all of the almost infinite explanations for events that occur in the universe, the god explanation is one of the worst default positions. It's simply a resignation of the intellect to understand those events.

Then perhaps you have an explanation as to how the law of conservation of matter was suspended when the universe either first appeared or was "always here"?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-02-2015, 01:47 PM
RE: Prayer: the Ultimate Selfish Conceit
(23-02-2015 01:37 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If your answer is there is no way to prove answered prayer than I hardly need ask why you won't want God to reveal Himself to you. You are an apatheist, I take it. Sorry to hear that.

Really??? You can get the invisible guy to show up?? IN PERSON????

Oh... No.....

You can't......

More b.s.


Keep shoveling guys....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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24-02-2015, 01:37 AM
RE: Prayer: the Ultimate Selfish Conceit
(23-02-2015 01:38 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... Then perhaps you have an explanation ...

This preface right here is EXACTLY the point: No, I don't have an explanation, but I'm not enough of a cosmologist to refute your misapprehension or even corruption of already established scientific facts, but the fact that I have no explanation is NO reason to invoke a useless, senseless "explanation" that a "goddittit". What the hell does that accomplish?

Not having an explanation is the VERY driver of scientific investigation, to FIGURE IT OUT. That some people, like yourself, are content with "goddittit" as answer to nature's mechanisms baffles me - have you no curiosity? Have you no desire to understand something enough to PUT IT TO USE TO BETTER YOUR LIFE?

Your rush to paper over every gap in knowledge with "goddittit" brings to mind a crowd of giggling three year olds in kindergarten gleefully filling in the colors in a coloring book, oblivious to how the pictures were created to start with, oblivious to color balance, color tones, shading, all the nuances of sight that take many more years than three to understand. It's so childish.
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24-02-2015, 03:40 AM
RE: Prayer: the Ultimate Selfish Conceit
Prayer = a lack of faith in your gods plan.
Simple as that

When you pray, you are asking god to change his plan because it doesn't benefit you or because it may harm you or others you know.

Prayer often means that you don't believe that your god is good or you don't believe that your god has any morals and needs your guidance.

"Dear god, please save Timmy's life."
G-"Do you think I don't know about Timmy and his condition ?"

"Of course you know."
G-"Do you know if Timmy lives a good long life, that will mean that his actions and the actions of his great great grand children will prevent a vaccine from being discovered 100 years from now ? Billions will die without that vaccine. Do you want that to happen ?"

"Sorry, not buying this bullshit. Millions have died in the past from other diseases. You didn't provide a vaccine for those people."
G-"I was having an angel parade and we were low on angels."

"I'm obviously talking to myself."
G-"Obviously "

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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24-02-2015, 04:17 AM
RE: Prayer: the Ultimate Selfish Conceit
(23-02-2015 01:37 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If your answer is there is no way to prove answered prayer than I hardly need ask why you won't want God to reveal Himself to you.


Did god reveal itself to you q?

Do you have a two way conversation with it?

How often does it show itself to you?
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