Precognition Again
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16-07-2012, 10:42 PM
 
RE: Precognition Again
(16-07-2012 02:09 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  It's fucking silly that you take this seemingly realistic dreams, and assume its a precog simply because it fits the moans and state of your wife.


She could have been writhing in pain while you were asleep, and she could have been saying where it hurts.


The shotgun was simply a way for your brain to rationalize what was most likely heard during the night.


We can never be certain, but consulte ALL other,scientific explinations before leaping to the supernatural.

That has already been accounted for, but I'm not going into details.
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16-07-2012, 10:46 PM
 
RE: Precognition Again
(16-07-2012 02:21 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(16-07-2012 01:45 PM)Egor Wrote:  I believe I am the circle, and I have no further comment about the existence of God.
Very interesting Smile I'll have to comb through the thread to get a handle on your thinking 'cos it seems to have changed again Smile

With regard to your dream... it's a fiddly business, getting a handle on that stuff. Personally I think it's a very murky area, not well understood by lots of people, including me. Before you embrace me as a fellow mystic Tongue lemme explain. My personal belief is firmly that these events can be explained without recourse to the supernatural. However, they can *look* very convincing. And that sounds very like twaddle that I've just spouted. You know, *I've got a belief and I'll just find ways to support that belief and ignore contrary evidence* type twaddle.

My reason for this belief is based on experience and reading lots of articles in Skeptical Inquirer. It's amazing how your brain can be fooled, can remember things *clearly* which didn't happen etc. They've done experiments. Not that for a moment I doubt your dream did occur as you describe. The problem is that separating out the actual occurrence from the *observer's experience* in this case is extremely difficult. Dreams are subjective things. If I ask you questions about your dream - what colour was the gun, did you see the attacker's faces etc, can you guarantee that in searching for the memory your brain will not just supply *something* which is then remembered as the real deal?

Furthermore, after the dream which is troubling as evidence in itself, there is the interpretation you put on it. You could interpret that dream in many ways. If there *had* actually been an incident where people did attack your house and someone was injured, you would freak out and be amazed at how your powers of prediction are. Say that your wife woke up in the morning and was fine but later spilt some coffee and had to get a bandage on a burn in her abdomen region... again, *your dream predicted that!!!*.

Richard Feynman tells the story of how one day, quite arbitrarily, he was suddenly convinced that his grandmother had died. So he rang her. And she was alive. His point is that these sorts of incidents go unremembered, whereas the ones which *do* seem to have predictive power stand out and are remembered. So over the course of your life you have several incidents where you predict something (and it can be a passing thought). If it comes to pass, you suddenly remember "hey, I thought of that before it happened" and the idea of 'second sight' is confirmed, whereas if nothing happened you don't remember the 'prediction thought'.

Another thing. As humans our assessments of probabilities are *way* off. (I've just read a book on this, Thinking Fast and Slow by some geezer who's name I forget. Good book.) I bet if you sat down with a paper and pencil, counted the number of cyclists and runners on your favourite running route, made some assumptions about how close together they'd have to be for all three to have to fiddle around to pass safely, you'd find that the probability of that occurring is way higher than what we estimate. Add to that that you only remember the annoyance of having to slide past them and you're well on your way to supernaturally influenced cyclist/runner traffic jams Tongue

This is the reason why I will continue to believe that while interesting, this kind of predictive experience is too vague to count as evidence of precognition. Interestingly enough, even weak precognition effects can be tested for I believe (I read them Skeptical Inquirer articles years ago). There are some people who've spent some time devising devilishly clever experiments to test for such things and have come up with precisely zip, zero and nada, except when they've accidentally incorporated design flaws into their experiments, which subsequently become cult examples of why "the establishment ignores evidence contrary to the prevailing paradigm" beloved by UFOologists and water diviners everywhere Big Grin

I had the dream as stated. The incident occured as soon as we woke up. I have presented the facts. If you don't think it's precognition--fine. I suppose the other three I presented a couple of pages back aren't precognition either. Right?
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16-07-2012, 10:47 PM
RE: Precognition Again
(16-07-2012 09:06 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(16-07-2012 08:39 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  Are you eluding to the fact that we have only our perception to tell us something is true and beyond that is questionable? A Matrix deal, sort of?

Yup. That's precisely what I'm alluding to. Even our perceptions are questionable, no matter how obvious they seem.
Grrr. My spelling mistake. This isn't the first time you indirectly corrected me in reply. I'm on to your grammar police ways!
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16-07-2012, 11:18 PM
RE: Precognition Again
The problem I have with this universal mind is that it seems to help you.
It seems to care about your wife and family, and it never seems to be
able to reveal anything useful about it's self or the world, other than to warn you.

Also from a few compelling dreams from an outside universal mind feeding you symbolic information 4 times in your life seems like a huge leap, from coincidence, or dreams influence by sensory input to full scale universal mind.


Say that your universal mind is real. The only thing we could infer thus far about your universal mind is that it
sees into the future and warns people about bad events in the future. At which point this mind is essentially a psychic.

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16-07-2012, 11:43 PM
 
RE: Precognition Again
(16-07-2012 03:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Egor, I've had similar instances like that throughout my life... nothing as blatant as what you experienced... but far too clear to be coincidental.
Yes, I’ve had dozens of small examples of precognition like dreaming something and then turning on the TV and it’s the first thing on. But those are small and maybe even just coincidence. I think they’re precognitive, but I don’t waste time defending them.

I think precognition and premonitions are pretty well established. What one must do is contemplate the implications of such phenomena. What does it tell us about the mind?

(16-07-2012 03:39 PM)Jeff Wrote:  Do you dream every night? Have multiple dreams in one night? How many dreams have you had? If you've been able to remember your dreams for the past 30 years (let's say you are 35 or so) that's 30x365= about ten thousand dreams, of which 5 are "hits"? How long does a dream last? Could the whole part about your wife's stomach have occured while she was lying next to you, waking you up to say that her stomach was in pain?

That’s not what happened.

(16-07-2012 03:59 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  If so, precognition is the result of cause and effect of superstition.

I’ve already discussed the details of this incident throughout the posts in this string. If you don’t think it was precognition, then you don’t think it was precognition. I do.

(16-07-2012 04:27 PM)bemore Wrote:  Yeah sure....... lets mock everybody beliefs who dont match ours.
Fucking sad Sad

Thanks Bemore, I appreciate your support, and it is frustrating to see atheists who claim to believe in free thought ridicule those who actually try to think freely, but in truth even I found the Igor picture funny. Actually, my nic is based on that character, but it also fits my name, Edward Gordon.

(16-07-2012 04:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  Some beliefs deserve mockery. Some beliefs are fucking sad.

Loser.

(16-07-2012 04:42 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  
(16-07-2012 04:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  Some beliefs deserve mockery. Some beliefs are fucking sad.
So shutting someone up is preferable? Giving someone the extra push to close their minds, to lock themselves up? I remember a time like that. It was called The Dark Ages.

Hell, he doesn’t care about the Dark Ages. He is the Dark Ages. It was his mentality that made the Dark Ages and that mentality is always there looking to do it again.

(16-07-2012 04:45 PM)Jeff Wrote:  Your experience in no way proves "that consciousness is not confined to the emergent properties of an individual neurological system", but even if it did, of what value is this sort of precognition? It didn't help you or your wife avoid the problem, or to respond to it more quickly. Did it comfort your wife to know that you had had a dream where "something" happened to her stomach? Did it help the doctors? Would you have known how to correctly interpret the dream if it happened a day earlier, before you wife had any stomach problems? In what way would the situation have been any different if you had not had the dream?

Next time, post something in advance so we can date/time stamp it, and let us see the precognition at work. If you really can do it, apply to the JREF for the million dollar prize. It's there for the taking.

Actually, I appreciate you insinuating that I am being dishonest, or maybe looking for some kind of attention. At least is shows that if what I reported is true, then you would think it was something worth noting.

As for the usefulness of precognition in this case, no, there was no use to it whatsoever, and personally, I wish it had never occurred. But it did, so I reported the bare facts of it here.

(16-07-2012 04:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  I am not advocating shutting someone up; mockery is a rhetorical tool as are irony and sarcasm.

You remind me of this antisocial idiot I once met who called himself a professional heckler. He believed he was doing a service for comedians by heckling them from the audience. He considered it a feather in his cap if they talked to him from the stage during their act.

(16-07-2012 05:29 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Now I was trying to illustrate visually how I internally see egor. Which is to say, bordering on the insane.

Always happy to inspire artwork.

(16-07-2012 07:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Ain't gonna wade through this whole thread to find Egor's posts you are responding to. But science is most certainly not illogical, atheism is most certainly not a religion and science most definitely is based on faith. It is based on the faith that we have the capacity to objectively observe, measure and characterize reality. While that might seem axiomatic to most, it don't feel axiomatic to all. ... Don't mean I'm anti-science, hell I'm a professional scientist, it's the best bet we got going. ... Don't mean I'm gonna kiss its ring.

It’s funny you say because I’m a nurse and it always amazes me how people outside the medical profession put so much faith in medical science. You’d think we would all be living to 200 by now, yet we're still dying pretty close to the same age as we always have died if we made it out of infancy. So, I’m all for medical treatment, but I’m not going to kiss its ring. It can only do so much.

Before I was a nurse, I was an aircraft electrician, and as a result I absolutely despise flying. I’m all for aeronautical engineering, but I’m not going to kiss its ring.

Quote:And I actually like Egor when he's not being a prick.

Me, too.

(16-07-2012 10:31 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  NOTE: The picture I posted is from a movie called "Young Frankenstein", the character is igor, pronounced ee-gore. It's funny and also ironic in that Igor in the movie, participates in science. It wasn't meant to offend.

“Young Frankenstein” is a cult movie of ours. We’re always quoting lines from it. I liked the picture.

Quote:I'm finally ready to disprove this universal consciousness, communicating to me through my dreams idea.

The problem I have with this universal mind is that it seems to help you. It seems to care about your wife and family, and it never seems to be able to reveal anything useful besides a simple warning.

You talk like it’s a separate being. It’s not. I am it. So are you. And I think precognition is a mistake, an anomaly. I don’t think it’s supposed to happen. You and I are supposed to believe we are separate beings with separate minds living in a world full of separate objects that we are separate from. If we woke up, everything would disappear and we’d be left to our self—again.

Quote:So the only thing we could infer thus far about your universal mind is that it sees into the future and warns people about bad events in the future.

That’s how you see it, but I don’t agree.
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17-07-2012, 12:00 AM
RE: Precognition Again
You just reminded me of that old Bill Hicks quote " we are all one consciousness
experiencing itself subjectively, there is no
such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we
are the imagination of ourselves. "

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17-07-2012, 12:13 AM
RE: Precognition Again
Would you say this megamind is like the matrix, where the matrix and all the people in it are really a universal mind?

Cause if that is so that take on the nature of reality leads to an ocean of contradiction and can be the basis for the justification for every religion...

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17-07-2012, 05:33 AM
RE: Precognition Again
Quote:I think precognition and premonitions are pretty well established. What
one must do is contemplate the implications of such phenomena. What does
it tell us about the mind?
No, this has been intensively studied for over a century, and there is no scientific evidence of psychic phenomena. All of it is explainable in psychological terms.

Quote:
Quote:Some beliefs deserve mockery. Some beliefs are fucking sad.
Loser.

Quote:So
shutting someone up is preferable? Giving someone the extra push to
close their minds, to lock themselves up? I remember a time like that.
It was called The Dark Ages.
Hell, he doesn’t
care about the Dark Ages. He is the Dark Ages. It was his mentality that
made the Dark Ages and that mentality is always there looking to do it
again.
Thank you for the demonstration of ad hominem attack.
Do you really equate requiring evidence to living in the Dark Ages? Which don't you understand, science or the Dark Ages?

Your reaction is the typical reaction of the believer when asked for evidence. You provide testimony, not evidence. And one of the key indicators of belief as opposed to knowledge is your emotional attachment to it.
You can preach your beliefs, but don't expect their acceptance without evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-07-2012, 06:47 AM
 
RE: Precognition Again
(17-07-2012 12:13 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  Would you say this megamind is like the matrix, where the matrix and all the people in it are really a universal mind?

Cause if that is so that take on the nature of reality leads to an ocean of contradiction and can be the basis for the justification for every religion...

Again, you say "this megamind" as if it were a separate thing apart from us, but I don't think it is. I'm going to use the term God, but by "God" I mean a fundamental consciousness that has never not existed. It's just easier to say God.

Before anything was there was God and God was it.
For whatever reason, God created the universe, but the only thing to create the universe from was himself, because #1: Before anything was, God was it.

Therefore, God created the universe from his own substance, which is basically consciousness. Therefore, everything is God. God is still the only thing that really exists.

Just as we create objects in dreams out of our consciousness, so God has created the physical universe out of his consciousness.

Therefore the universe is really just a God-dream, and we are characters in that dream.

Precognition is a mistake. It is a lucid element in an otherwise undisturbed dream. It's not supposed to happen.

When I say there is no God, I mean that literally. All there is, all there has ever been, and all that will ever exist is the fundamental consciousness, and nothing is really real except for it. This fundamental consciousness does not have a God, ergo there is no God.

In "The Matrix" there was still a separation even once Neo was woken up. There was no monistic state of being. So, I don't really think they are the same.
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17-07-2012, 06:50 AM
RE: Precognition Again
(17-07-2012 06:47 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(17-07-2012 12:13 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  Would you say this megamind is like the matrix, where the matrix and all the people in it are really a universal mind?

Cause if that is so that take on the nature of reality leads to an ocean of contradiction and can be the basis for the justification for every religion...

Again, you say "this megamind" as if it were a separate thing apart from us, but I don't think it is. I'm going to use the term God, but by "God" I mean a fundamental consciousness that has never not existed. It's just easier to say God.

Before anything was there was God and God was it.
For whatever reason, God created the universe, but the only thing to create the universe from was himself, because #1: Before anything was, God was it.

Therefore, God created the universe from his own substance, which is basically consciousness. Therefore, everything is God. God is still the only thing that really exists.

Just as we create objects in dreams out of our consciousness, so God has created the physical universe out of his consciousness.

Therefore the universe is really just a God-dream, and we are characters in that dream.

Precognition is a mistake. It is a lucid element in an otherwise undisturbed dream. It's not supposed to happen.

When I say there is no God, I mean that literally. All there is, all there has ever been, and all that will ever exist is the fundamental consciousness, and nothing is really real except for it. This fundamental consciousness does not have a God, ergo there is no God.

In "The Matrix" there was still a separation even once Neo was woken up. There was no monistic state of being. So, I don't really think they are the same.
That's an interesting belief, and it is based on what?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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