Precognition Again
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16-07-2012, 09:55 AM
RE: Precognition Again
One of the things missing from reading about Egor's experience is the actual emotion he felt. I have had similar events. What makes the experiences more intense is the emotional side of the experience. Remove the emotional portion of the experience and they (at least to me) become very insignificant, more coincidence than anything. For all the time I've been alive, it would be more amazing to me if one of my thousands of dreams didn't at least slightly serve as a metaphor for a real life event.

Here's an event I experience over and over. This particular event is meaningless, although it annoys the SH_T out of me:

I run a 10 mile trail that goes from my house to the downtown area and back. It's got bikers, shoppers, runners, etc. on it. Over the course of the run, almost every time I pass another jogger or walker, somebody on a bike also passes us at the same time, either in the same direction or from the opposite direction, and the three of us have to squeeze together so everyone has room to pass. I used to never notice this, but it happens so often that it's impossible to ignore. I can go five minutes without seeing anyone, and as soon as I come up on a person walking, BOOM, a biker also comes up and we all pass each other at the same time. This happens 8 out of 10 times, consistently, every time I run. Morning, noon, night, good or bad weather. Given the length of the trail, the sparse traffic on it, the different speeds we're all traveling at, the odds of three people all lining up at the same point OVER AND OVER AGAIN seems almost impossible. Yet it keeps happening.

The only difference to me between this and a dream 'predicting' an event is the fact that the dream is far less irritating, and happens far less.

Egor, glad your wife is OK. Abdominal pain is brutal.

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16-07-2012, 10:06 AM
RE: Precognition Again
(16-07-2012 08:45 AM)Egor Wrote:  Religious atheism simply replaces the Ancient Greek notions of God (which is also the form of the Christian god) with "Science." And in the religious atheist mind, "Science" is just as amorphous as the concept of God is to a Christian; it is the object of your worship. You have your morality system, which is pretty much a mix of libertarian and Wiccan, and you have your prophets dead and alive (Dawkins, Hitchens, et. al.). You want to be recognized by the First Amendment and have ministers in the military. You have your religious symbols; and you desire power in the grade school classroom. Furthermore, you would impose your beliefs on others if you had the power to do so. You are religious.
You really are deluded. Not only do you fail to grasp what the scientific method is (literally the opposite of religion).

You also fail to grasp the meaning of words like "worship", "prophet", and "religious symbols."

And as if that wasn't enough you make to completely unfounded assertions (e.g. "you desire power in the grade school classroom" and "you would impose your beliefs on others") for which you have no empirical evidence to support.

And lastly, of course, you lump all atheists into one generalized grouping, which is absurd since even atheists argue with one another about all of the matters you raised in this latest post.

You're not an atheist, Egor, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself. Atheists don't believe in god. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

You do. So that makes you a theist. But based on the amount of time you spend hanging out on atheist forums, I wouldn't be surprised if you eventually came to your senses.

And if not, I just hope that you don't cause any harm to society and that fewer and fewer people have the misfortune of being as indoctrinated as you seem to have been. It's a real shame. Makes me sad because it's not even your fault. You were given this mindset, you didn't make it.

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16-07-2012, 01:45 PM
 
RE: Precognition Again
(16-07-2012 09:23 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  That's not a bad idea; however, anthropomorphism is.

Agreed.

(16-07-2012 08:45 AM)Egor Wrote:  I'm not likely to accept precognition, not because I'm dogmatic, but rather because I have found other, more satisfying explanations.

No you haven't. You've found what you need to find to hold on to your faith in atheism.

(16-07-2012 09:55 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  One of the things missing from reading about Egor's experience is the actual emotion he felt. I have had similar events. What makes the experiences more intense is the emotional side of the experience. Remove the emotional portion of the experience and they (at least to me) become very insignificant, more coincidence than anything. For all the time I've been alive, it would be more amazing to me if one of my thousands of dreams didn't at least slightly serve as a metaphor for a real life event.

Here's an event I experience over and over. This particular event is meaningless, although it annoys the SH_T out of me:

I run a 10 mile trail that goes from my house to the downtown area and back. It's got bikers, shoppers, runners, etc. on it. Over the course of the run, almost every time I pass another jogger or walker, somebody on a bike also passes us at the same time, either in the same direction or from the opposite direction, and the three of us have to squeeze together so everyone has room to pass. I used to never notice this, but it happens so often that it's impossible to ignore. I can go five minutes without seeing anyone, and as soon as I come up on a person walking, BOOM, a biker also comes up and we all pass each other at the same time. This happens 8 out of 10 times, consistently, every time I run. Morning, noon, night, good or bad weather. Given the length of the trail, the sparse traffic on it, the different speeds we're all traveling at, the odds of three people all lining up at the same point OVER AND OVER AGAIN seems almost impossible. Yet it keeps happening.

The only difference to me between this and a dream 'predicting' an event is the fact that the dream is far less irritating, and happens far less.

Egor, glad your wife is OK. Abdominal pain is brutal.

If you truly have that experience 8 out of 10 times, then you have found something truly paranormal. As for me, I've presented the facts of the various incidents. Those facts do not fit with your atheist faith, so you must discount them anyway you can. I've said repeatedly that precognition does not prove the existence of God, in fact it disproves the existence of God (from a Christian, Muslim, Jewish perspective).

But that is in no way good enough for you atheists. Why? Because it's not about the existence of God--not in the slightest. It's about your god "science" vs. the Grecko-Roman god of traditional religion. Both are entirely faith-based. Both are entirely unreasonable and illogical.

Now, what I'm about to say will be completely ignored, but here it goes: I'm not talking about the scientific method of discovery. That method is an applied system of logic that everyone uses everyday in any number of ways (Is Tide better than Bold? Wash three loads with tide and record results. Wash three loads with Bold and record results. Compare results. Have friend repeat experiment using same criteria--Aha! Tide is better--whatever.). I'm talking about the faith that atheists place in a thing called "science." It's an amorphous entity that promises to give their lives meaning, direction, and hope. In short, it is a god. The religious atheists want social power, just like the traditional religious groups.

There is a vast amount of things we do not understand about the reality of the universe. Atheists think Science (with a capital S) will answer their questions. Christians think God and/or the Bible will answer their questions. It's all faith. Theoretical science is dead. God is dead. We will never know anything about the universe we don't already know.

I have come full circle in my search for God. I have come to realize there is no God, because all there is is God. I have no religion. I am the circle.

(16-07-2012 10:06 AM)lightninlives Wrote:  You really are deluded. Not only do you fail to grasp what the scientific method is (literally the opposite of religion).

You also fail to grasp the meaning of words like "worship", "prophet", and "religious symbols."

And as if that wasn't enough you make to completely unfounded assertions (e.g. "you desire power in the grade school classroom" and "you would impose your beliefs on others") for which you have no empirical evidence to support.

And lastly, of course, you lump all atheists into one generalized grouping, which is absurd since even atheists argue with one another about all of the matters you raised in this latest post.

You're not an atheist, Egor, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself. Atheists don't believe in god. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Look how upset you get when your faith is challenged. Laughat You're just like a Christian. Hell, I bet you'd have me banned if you could. Yes

Quote:You do. So that makes you a theist. But based on the amount of time you spend hanging out on atheist forums, I wouldn't be surprised if you eventually came to your senses.

Like I said, I have no faith any longer. I know there is no god out there. I am utterly alone, and I am the circle.

So are you.

Quote:And if not, I just hope that you don't cause any harm to society and that fewer and fewer people have the misfortune of being as indoctrinated as you seem to have been. It's a real shame. Makes me sad because it's not even your fault. You were given this mindset, you didn't make it.

Uh...by who? Who gave me this mindset? I think maybe Zen Buddhists kind of think the way I do, but I've never been a Buddhist. So where'd I get this idea?

Wait a minute. You actually think I'm a Christian don't you? You need me to be a Christian. You're actually fooling yourself, convincing yourself, no matter what I say to the contrary, that I am a Bible-bashing, fundamentalist, redneck churchgoer who has been duped into actually wanting to vote for the Mormon Romney.

You are just like the religious. You are religious. You may not admit it, but you are. Most Christians if you ask them, "Are you religious?" will say, "no." But they are. So are you. You place your faith in the god Science--and for the most part, you've probably never even done a scientific experiment to achieve any new knowledge. Your morality is evolution. Your sacrifice is abortion. Your rebirth is nihilism. Your salvation--the eradication of your sin--comes through the inherent moral relativism in the absence of free will.

I don't personally give a shit that you practice the religion of atheism; I don't care that Tom Cruise is a Scientologist. You have to believe whatever you are supposed to believe.

I believe I am the circle, and I have no further comment about the existence of God.







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16-07-2012, 02:02 PM
RE: Precognition Again
(16-07-2012 01:45 PM)Egor Wrote:  I believe I am the circle, and I have no further comment about the existence of God.
Ah, if only I could believe that was true. Excl Thumbsup

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16-07-2012, 02:09 PM
RE: Precognition Again
Dreams are what you make of them. Undecided

I once had a dream I was Harry Potter, playing Quiditch and getting an amazingly good looking blonde girlfriend. Sadly, I am not Harry Potter... Nor Do I have a good Looking Blonde girlfriend.

Though I do have a girlfriend now.... Maybe that dream predicted I would have a girlfriend? Consider Consider Consider Consider Tongue


It's fucking silly that you take this seemingly realistic dreams, and assume its a precog simply because it fits the moans and state of your wife.


She could have been writhing in pain while you were asleep, and she could have been saying where it hurts.


The shotgun was simply a way for your brain to rationalize what was most likely heard during the night.


We can never be certain, but consulte ALL other,scientific explinations before leaping to the supernatural.

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16-07-2012, 02:21 PM
RE: Precognition Again
(16-07-2012 01:45 PM)Egor Wrote:  I believe I am the circle, and I have no further comment about the existence of God.
Very interesting Smile I'll have to comb through the thread to get a handle on your thinking 'cos it seems to have changed again Smile

With regard to your dream... it's a fiddly business, getting a handle on that stuff. Personally I think it's a very murky area, not well understood by lots of people, including me. Before you embrace me as a fellow mystic Tongue lemme explain. My personal belief is firmly that these events can be explained without recourse to the supernatural. However, they can *look* very convincing. And that sounds very like twaddle that I've just spouted. You know, *I've got a belief and I'll just find ways to support that belief and ignore contrary evidence* type twaddle.

My reason for this belief is based on experience and reading lots of articles in Skeptical Inquirer. It's amazing how your brain can be fooled, can remember things *clearly* which didn't happen etc. They've done experiments. Not that for a moment I doubt your dream did occur as you describe. The problem is that separating out the actual occurrence from the *observer's experience* in this case is extremely difficult. Dreams are subjective things. If I ask you questions about your dream - what colour was the gun, did you see the attacker's faces etc, can you guarantee that in searching for the memory your brain will not just supply *something* which is then remembered as the real deal?

Furthermore, after the dream which is troubling as evidence in itself, there is the interpretation you put on it. You could interpret that dream in many ways. If there *had* actually been an incident where people did attack your house and someone was injured, you would freak out and be amazed at how your powers of prediction are. Say that your wife woke up in the morning and was fine but later spilt some coffee and had to get a bandage on a burn in her abdomen region... again, *your dream predicted that!!!*.

Richard Feynman tells the story of how one day, quite arbitrarily, he was suddenly convinced that his grandmother had died. So he rang her. And she was alive. His point is that these sorts of incidents go unremembered, whereas the ones which *do* seem to have predictive power stand out and are remembered. So over the course of your life you have several incidents where you predict something (and it can be a passing thought). If it comes to pass, you suddenly remember "hey, I thought of that before it happened" and the idea of 'second sight' is confirmed, whereas if nothing happened you don't remember the 'prediction thought'.

Another thing. As humans our assessments of probabilities are *way* off. (I've just read a book on this, Thinking Fast and Slow by some geezer who's name I forget. Good book.) I bet if you sat down with a paper and pencil, counted the number of cyclists and runners on your favourite running route, made some assumptions about how close together they'd have to be for all three to have to fiddle around to pass safely, you'd find that the probability of that occurring is way higher than what we estimate. Add to that that you only remember the annoyance of having to slide past them and you're well on your way to supernaturally influenced cyclist/runner traffic jams Tongue

This is the reason why I will continue to believe that while interesting, this kind of predictive experience is too vague to count as evidence of precognition. Interestingly enough, even weak precognition effects can be tested for I believe (I read them Skeptical Inquirer articles years ago). There are some people who've spent some time devising devilishly clever experiments to test for such things and have come up with precisely zip, zero and nada, except when they've accidentally incorporated design flaws into their experiments, which subsequently become cult examples of why "the establishment ignores evidence contrary to the prevailing paradigm" beloved by UFOologists and water diviners everywhere Big Grin
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16-07-2012, 03:29 PM
RE: Precognition Again
(16-07-2012 01:45 PM)Egor Wrote:  If you truly have that experience 8 out of 10 times, then you have found something truly paranormal.
Why do you feel the event I'm experiencing on the running trail is paranormal?

(16-07-2012 01:45 PM)Egor Wrote:  As for me, I've presented the facts of the various incidents. Those facts do not fit with your atheist faith, so you must discount them anyway you can. I've said repeatedly that precognition does not prove the existence of God, in fact it disproves the existence of God (from a Christian, Muslim, Jewish perspective).
I haven't discounted anything. I'm doing the opposite; I'm looking at everything. What you presented as facts are only part of the whole picture. What about dreams that mean nothing? What about random occurrences that seem statistically impossible, but aren't as exciting as dreams? I don't have a "faith" that I need to box everything into. But I am going to ask questions, and if there are no answers, then "I don't know" is perfectly acceptable.

(16-07-2012 01:45 PM)Egor Wrote:  But that is in no way good enough for you atheists. Why? Because it's not about the existence of God--not in the slightest. It's about your god "science" vs. the Grecko-Roman god of traditional religion. Both are entirely faith-based. Both are entirely unreasonable and illogical.
Science is a tool, no more a god than a hammer. If I want to pound a nail, I grab a hammer. If I want to know why air keeps me alive, I'm going to turn to science. If I can't rationalize something, or if I don't like the answer I get from science, I can make up my own answers. Nobody can stop me from doing that. It doesn't make my answers legitimate.

(16-07-2012 01:45 PM)Egor Wrote:  We will never know anything about the universe we don't already know.
You feel our knowledge has reached its peak?

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16-07-2012, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2012 03:37 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Precognition Again
Science is based on faith? Atheism is a religion? Science is illogical? There is so much fail in a single post of yours, it's unbelievable. You keep repeating the same inane assertions over and over again like a mantra while ignoring the posts that completely refute your ridiculous belief.

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16-07-2012, 03:34 PM
RE: Precognition Again
Egor, I've had similar instances like that throughout my life... nothing as blatant as what you experienced... but far too clear to be coincidental.

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16-07-2012, 03:34 PM
RE: Precognition Again
(16-07-2012 03:33 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Science is based on faith? Atheism is a religion? Science is illogical?

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My vote is on very, very confused. He doesn't like reality.

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