Predation in 'Intelligent Design" ???
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13-02-2013, 10:12 AM
RE: Predation in 'Intelligent Design" ???
(13-02-2013 10:04 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  1. What have they done to deserve what? They don't deserve anything, naturalist. They just are. Kill or be killed. Humans and other animals alike. That's your worldview. Or did ethics for the natural world also result via Evolution?
2. Deserve what? Pain upon being eaten or watching their offspring eaten? Pain is a conditioned/evolved response to stimuli. The pain is supposed to be the result of selection informing the stupid beast that it is being eaten--and to run. It should be grateful for the pain from a naturalist's perspective.
3. How do you know I'm not a vegetarian or vegan?
4. How do you know plants don't feel pain? I've seen a number of studies that are compelling regarding stimuli and plant life when plucked or cut? Why not be a Jain and show your true commitment?
I gave you a like because it is so wonderfully confused.

What you don't seem to understand is that I am arguing from your point of view, assuming (for argument's sake) that there is a god.

Now, in view of that (you got it?) I will answer your points.

1. Pain, fear, suffering.
2. Mute from your point of view (which was the basis of this thread)
3. Don't know, don't care
4. That's a beautiful one, if not original. I have a simple test: before I eat any plant, I stick a needle in it -- if it jumps, I won't eat it.
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13-02-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: Predation in 'Intelligent Design" ???
(13-02-2013 10:04 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:What has that got to do with zebras, rabbits, mice,..... -- what have they done to deserve it?

Their fear, pain and suffering is OK with the almighty?

And, before you bring it up: I am a vegetarian.
1. What have they done to deserve what? They don't deserve anything, naturalist. They just are. Kill or be killed. Humans and other animals alike. That's your worldview. Or did ethics for the natural world also result via Evolution?
2. Deserve what? Pain upon being eaten or watching their offspring eaten? Pain is a conditioned/evolved response to stimuli. The pain is supposed to be the result of selection informing the stupid beast that it is being eaten--and to run. It should be grateful for the pain from a naturalist's perspective.
3. How do you know I'm not a vegetarian or vegan?
4. How do you know plants don't feel pain? I've seen a number of studies that are compelling regarding stimuli and plant life when plucked or cut? Why not be a Jain and show your true commitment?
"1. What have they done to deserve what? They don't deserve anything, naturalist. They just are. Kill or be killed. Humans and other animals alike. That's your worldview. Or did ethics for the natural world also result via Evolution?"

That's the whole point (more or less). Life and non-life are not really all that different. Life seeks to preserve life. It does so by first seeking to preserve itself and then those closest to it. That would then be, the evolution of morals and ethics as relative systems by which to gauge harm and survival.

"2. Deserve what? Pain upon being eaten or watching their offspring eaten? Pain is a conditioned/evolved response to stimuli. The pain is supposed to be the result of selection informing the stupid beast that it is being eaten--and to run. It should begrateful for the pain from a naturalist's perspective."

That is really just number 1 continued. Pain is a response to external stimuli that indicates harm. So is emotional pain. Pain is avoided. Which is, once again, a part of the evolution of a moral system by which to avoid pain.

"3. How do you know I'm not a vegetarian or vegan?"
Who cares? Why not just say if you are? Humans have developed technology and agriculture to the point of no longer necessarily needing to eat meat. But meat is still the best way of ingesting protein and until we are able to produce synthetic meat, it will remain necessary for a significant portion of the global population. Once we achieve that, then we can discuss the morals and ethics behind killing animals for sustenance.

"4. How do you know plants don't feel pain? I've seen a number of studies that are compelling regarding stimuli and plant life when plucked or cut? Why not be a Jain and show your true commitment?"
Which just gets back to the point that death is necessary for life. That kind of undermines the whole point of your garden of Eden and the development of death and sin. Death existed before the fall, plants had to die.

Also, what studies have you seen that attempt to connect plants and the response of stimuli to the plant feeling pain? L. Ron. Hubbard and his e-meter?

Evolve
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13-02-2013, 10:20 AM
RE: Predation in 'Intelligent Design" ???
(13-02-2013 09:56 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(13-02-2013 08:46 AM)Zat Wrote:  In a poem I posted on "Why god made so many idiots" I used the following two stanzas:

Eat and be eaten,
that’s the commandment,
obeyed by all of his creatures:
the lion rips the throat of the zebra,
a pack of wolf tears a deer apart,
the fox devours the rabbit,
The cat ‘plays’ with the mouse,
preying mantis munches on butteflies,
venus flytrap digests insects,
humans, on top of the food chain
kill, use, torture them all,
including their own kind.

It would have been nothing
to the ‘omnipotent’ ‘father’
to base his design of all of us
on photosynthesis,
but he liked the idea of
pain, fear and suffering,
probably as a form of
divine entertainment.

It would be interesting to see how believers explain god's idea of inventing predation, instead of photosynthesis for all living things.

He is supposedly omnipotent, he could have done both just as easily.

Photosynthesis is beautiful and efficient.

Predation is cruel, barbaric, sadistic and totally inefficient.

But it is fun to watch, I guess. Angry

So...you're upset about how God designed things but you're an atheist vegetarian, right? If that is the case, then you don't need an answer to your question. No

When you admit you believe in God, but are angry at God, then I'll be glad to answer your question. But for now, all double-minded like you are, an answer is utterly wasted on you.
Of the 16 topics on your forum, only 2 have their last post by someone other than a version of yourself. When is Easter again?

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13-02-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: Predation in 'Intelligent Design" ???
Quote: Humans have developed technology and agriculture to the point of no longer necessarily needing to eat meat. But meat is still the best way
of ingesting protein and until we are able to produce synthetic meat, it will remain necessary for a significant portion of the global population.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16972761

Probably have had it decades ago, if we hadn't wasted so much human brain-power on blowing shit up.

http://www.vegetarian-nutrition.info/pos...itutes.php
Not to mention, Hindu India had a largish population before any of the modern industrial substitutes.

So, no, it's not necessary, and really hasn't been, since the advent of agriculture. Convenient, yes. But the main reason we keep killing animals is that we enjoy it - all of it: the killing, the brute power and illusion of control, the consuming and the title: Top of the Food Chain (except for maggots and bacteria)

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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13-02-2013, 10:53 AM
RE: Predation in 'Intelligent Design" ???
(13-02-2013 10:49 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
Quote: Humans have developed technology and agriculture to the point of no longer necessarily needing to eat meat. But meat is still the best way
of ingesting protein and until we are able to produce synthetic meat, it will remain necessary for a significant portion of the global population.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16972761

Probably have had it decades ago, if we hadn't wasted so much human brain-power on blowing shit up.

http://www.vegetarian-nutrition.info/pos...itutes.php
Not to mention, Hindu India had a largish population before any of the modern industrial substitutes.

So, no, it's not necessary, and really hasn't been, since the advent of agriculture. Convenient, yes. But the main reason we keep killing animals is that we enjoy it - all of it: the killing, the brute power and illusion of control, the consuming and the title: Top of the Food Chain (except for maggots and bacteria)
I don't know about saying it isn't still necessary. Some people are allergic to Soy, so getting proper protein from some foods is still not viable for them. I don't know of any allergies to meat, but plenty to plants. We have issues there we have to address too.

But I concur on stopping the blowing shit up part and researching the necessary stuff.

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13-02-2013, 11:04 AM
RE: Predation in 'Intelligent Design" ???
I just can't get it.

Had god designed the universe intelligently, all living creatures based on photosynthesis, none of the ugliness, pain, suffering that goes with predation would be an issue.

I still have not seen an answer to this simple question: WHY DID GOD NOT OPT FOR THIS INFINITELY MORE INTELLIGENT SOLUTION?

He already worked it out for plants, for Christ's sake!

So why go for the stupid, inefficient, barbaric solution?

Please, please, please, answer this if you can!

Till then, enjoy another original Zat-rant in poetry:

Wild Dogs

I saw a pack of wild dogs
on TV, the other day,
they brought down a gazelle,
didn’t kill it outright but
started feeding,
tearing out chunks of its flesh,
still alive.

It’s the gazelle
that shocked me most:
head slightly raised,
just watching them,
with almost an interest.

I didn’t see hatred,
outrage or moral indignation
in those sad eyes,
I saw only pain,
acceptance,
fast fading light.

Not the gazelle,,
nor the wild dogs
knew about evil.
The dogs had to eat
what they could find,
they were hungry,
had pups to feed.

And then I knew:
for carnivores
life is just survival,
by hunting, killing, devouring,
by sheer force or deception…
…they have no choice…

…we do.

.
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13-02-2013, 12:40 PM
RE: Predation in 'Intelligent Design" ???
Quote:1. What have they done to deserve what? They don't deserve anything, naturalist. They just are. Kill or be killed. Humans and other animals alike. That's your worldview. Or did ethics for the natural world also result via Evolution?"

That's the whole point (more or less). Life and non-life are not really all that different. Life seeks to preserve life. It does so by first seeking to preserve itself and then those closest to it. That would then be, the evolution of morals and ethics as relative systems by which to gauge harm and survival.

"2. Deserve what? Pain upon being eaten or watching their offspring eaten? Pain is a conditioned/evolved response to stimuli. The pain is supposed to be the result of selection informing the stupid beast that it is being eaten--and to run. It should begrateful for the pain from a naturalist's perspective."

That is really just number 1 continued. Pain is a response to external stimuli that indicates harm. So is emotional pain. Pain is avoided. Which is, once again, a part of the evolution of a moral system by which to avoid pain.

"3. How do you know I'm not a vegetarian or vegan?"
Who cares? Why not just say if you are? Humans have developed technology and agriculture to the point of no longer necessarily needing to eat meat. But meat is still the best way of ingesting protein and until we are able to produce synthetic meat, it will remain necessary for a significant portion of the global population. Once we achieve that, then we can discuss the morals and ethics behind killing animals for sustenance.

"4. How do you know plants don't feel pain? I've seen a number of studies that are compelling regarding stimuli and plant life when plucked or cut? Why not be a Jain and show your true commitment?"
Which just gets back to the point that death is necessary for life. That kind of undermines the whole point of your garden of Eden and the development of death and sin. Death existed before the fall, plants had to die.

Also, what studies have you seen that attempt to connect plants and the response of stimuli to the plant feeling pain? L. Ron. Hubbard and his e-meter?
A Christian can use the word deserve in context. How do you and every other freethinker assert that an animal deserves to be without pain?
Deserve = To be worthy of; merit.
It is self-evident that animals (plants) are to be treated with respect and not as mere food? It is an evolutionary bias that we as we compete should recognize our competitors and treat them with honor, or love, or any other self-evident or manmade ethic?
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13-02-2013, 12:45 PM
Re: Predation in 'Intelligent Design" ???
I did not use the word "deserve" in my replies because life does not deserve anything more over non-life. Life has the ability to preserve itself while non-life does not. No deserved actions to be found. Life is not fair, neither is non - life, it just is.

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13-02-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: Predation in 'Intelligent Design" ???
(13-02-2013 12:40 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  A Christian can use the word deserve in context. How do you and every other freethinker assert that an animal deserves to be without pain?
Deserve = To be worthy of; merit.
It is self-evident that animals (plants) are to be treated with respect and not as mere food? It is an evolutionary bias that we as we compete should recognize our competitors and treat them with honor, or love, or any other self-evident or manmade ethic?
So why do even humans have laws against cruelty to animals?

And you are still evading the main question on this thread, I posted in all capitals, bold and underlined (so you couldn't possibly miss it) in my previous post.

Either answer it (intelligently, if possible) or admit it that you have no fucking idea!
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13-02-2013, 12:49 PM
RE: Predation in 'Intelligent Design" ???
(13-02-2013 12:40 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:1. What have they done to deserve what? They don't deserve anything, naturalist. They just are. Kill or be killed. Humans and other animals alike. That's your worldview. Or did ethics for the natural world also result via Evolution?"

That's the whole point (more or less). Life and non-life are not really all that different. Life seeks to preserve life. It does so by first seeking to preserve itself and then those closest to it. That would then be, the evolution of morals and ethics as relative systems by which to gauge harm and survival.

"2. Deserve what? Pain upon being eaten or watching their offspring eaten? Pain is a conditioned/evolved response to stimuli. The pain is supposed to be the result of selection informing the stupid beast that it is being eaten--and to run. It should begrateful for the pain from a naturalist's perspective."

That is really just number 1 continued. Pain is a response to external stimuli that indicates harm. So is emotional pain. Pain is avoided. Which is, once again, a part of the evolution of a moral system by which to avoid pain.

"3. How do you know I'm not a vegetarian or vegan?"
Who cares? Why not just say if you are? Humans have developed technology and agriculture to the point of no longer necessarily needing to eat meat. But meat is still the best way of ingesting protein and until we are able to produce synthetic meat, it will remain necessary for a significant portion of the global population. Once we achieve that, then we can discuss the morals and ethics behind killing animals for sustenance.

"4. How do you know plants don't feel pain? I've seen a number of studies that are compelling regarding stimuli and plant life when plucked or cut? Why not be a Jain and show your true commitment?"
Which just gets back to the point that death is necessary for life. That kind of undermines the whole point of your garden of Eden and the development of death and sin. Death existed before the fall, plants had to die.

Also, what studies have you seen that attempt to connect plants and the response of stimuli to the plant feeling pain? L. Ron. Hubbard and his e-meter?
A Christian can use the word deserve in context. How do you and every other freethinker assert that an animal deserves to be without pain?
Deserve = To be worthy of; merit.
It is self-evident that animals (plants) are to be treated with respect and not as mere food? It is an evolutionary bias that we as we compete should recognize our competitors and treat them with honor, or love, or any other self-evident or manmade ethic?
You're really not grasping this.

It is irrelevant what we think. It doesn't matter how we decide who deserves this and doesn't deserve that. We're asking you to justify the suffering of animals based on your theistic worldview. Why does your God feel the need to let animals slaughter each other? Why does your God think it's ok to let a mouse suffer horrific pain at the hands (paws) of a cat who has an overwhelming instinctual urge to chase and kill it? Why does your God - who is presumably the same god who "sees even the sparrow" - allow a venemous snake to capture that sparrow and inject it with neurotoxic venom (which is immensely painful) just so it can eat it?

Why did your God so meticulously design such horrors on his beautiful Earth?

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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