Presuppositional Apologetics
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18-09-2014, 06:33 PM
Presuppositional Apologetics
I have listened to a lot of presup apologists and while I do find holes in their arguments, and a lot of circular reasoning, I'm left scratching my head as to why I have not heard anyone answer their basic questions. I had heard that David Smalley from Dogma Debate was a good counter apologist, but when I heard him talk with Sye Ten B. and Eric Hovind, I didn't think he did all too good. Same with Matt Dillahunty. While Matt didn't play childish games like Sye, I felt the debate went no where. Can anyone recommend a good resource to refute presup arguments?
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18-09-2014, 06:42 PM
RE: Presuppositional Apologetics
I think that's as good as it gets - because presups debating is really a misnomer...


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18-09-2014, 06:50 PM
RE: Presuppositional Apologetics
(18-09-2014 06:42 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  I think that's as good as it gets - because presups debating is really a misnomer...

I think that's it exactly. They seem to want to quibble over off-topic points and never really support any of their assertions. Dillahunty has already said after the sye debacle he'll never 'debate' a presup again.
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18-09-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: Presuppositional Apologetics
(18-09-2014 06:33 PM)MrSkeptic Wrote:  I have listened to a lot of presup apologists and while I do find holes in their arguments, and a lot of circular reasoning, I'm left scratching my head as to why I have not heard anyone answer their basic questions. I had heard that David Smalley from Dogma Debate was a good counter apologist, but when I heard him talk with Sye Ten B. and Eric Hovind, I didn't think he did all too good. Same with Matt Dillahunty. While Matt didn't play childish games like Sye, I felt the debate went no where. Can anyone recommend a good resource to refute presup arguments?

Because their questions are presuppositional. If you aren't presupposing a god, there isn't going to be a truly relevant answer to a question that does.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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18-09-2014, 08:18 PM
RE: Presuppositional Apologetics
(18-09-2014 07:43 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 06:33 PM)MrSkeptic Wrote:  I have listened to a lot of presup apologists and while I do find holes in their arguments, and a lot of circular reasoning, I'm left scratching my head as to why I have not heard anyone answer their basic questions. I had heard that David Smalley from Dogma Debate was a good counter apologist, but when I heard him talk with Sye Ten B. and Eric Hovind, I didn't think he did all too good. Same with Matt Dillahunty. While Matt didn't play childish games like Sye, I felt the debate went no where. Can anyone recommend a good resource to refute presup arguments?

Because their questions are presuppositional. If you aren't presupposing a god, there isn't going to be a truly relevant answer to a question that does.

It is also a very immature argument, like saying how do you know over and over despite what has been told. Let us not forget that they can never pin point what is god saying and what is satan saying especially in their own group and that it is based on the logical fallacy of begging the question.

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18-09-2014, 08:54 PM
RE: Presuppositional Apologetics
Presupps don't really "debate". What they do is *use opportunities* to present (repeat) their assertions, which they hold for the reasons they hold them. There really is no room for an "argument". It's a discussion entered in bad faith. That have a rote retort on standby, for any-all occasions. No matter what anyone says or does, they have determined they will not change their views, and it's not based on any known rational process.




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18-09-2014, 09:03 PM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2014 09:19 PM by Michael_Tadlock.)
RE: Presuppositional Apologetics
In the case of Sye, he won't discuss scripture with non believers, he won't entertain the notion that there is no god - even as a hypothetically, and he presupposes that all atheist actually do believe in god and choose to deny it. It is not that Matt and others don't try, it is because Sye, by every reasonable definition of the word, refuses to debate.
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18-09-2014, 09:36 PM
RE: Presuppositional Apologetics
Just watched the Matt vs Sye debate. That was frustrating. Perhaps presupp apologist = unreasonable. Sye should not debate, at least not formally, with non-christians. He is the best example of how to use logical fallacies.
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19-09-2014, 11:30 PM
RE: Presuppositional Apologetics
The fact that Sye won't discuss scripture is bullshit. I just find presup arguments annoying and I haven't heard really satisfying answers from our side to certain questions.
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20-09-2014, 12:41 AM
RE: Presuppositional Apologetics
(18-09-2014 06:33 PM)MrSkeptic Wrote:  I have listened to a lot of presup apologists and while I do find holes in their arguments, and a lot of circular reasoning, I'm left scratching my head as to why I have not heard anyone answer their basic questions. I had heard that David Smalley from Dogma Debate was a good counter apologist, but when I heard him talk with Sye Ten B. and Eric Hovind, I didn't think he did all too good. Same with Matt Dillahunty. While Matt didn't play childish games like Sye, I felt the debate went no where. Can anyone recommend a good resource to refute presup arguments?

I share your feelings when it comes to simple questions and simple answers.

What would you say to an exercise right here? Present me with a list of basic questions, and I will attempt to answer in a compact, memorable way. Sound interesting?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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