Presuppositional arguments....
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19-01-2016, 02:25 AM
Presuppositional arguments....
How do you deal with or answer presuppositional arguments about the existence of a supreme Being???
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19-01-2016, 02:28 AM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
With pity ...

... or laughter.

Depends on my mood.

Yes

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19-01-2016, 02:42 AM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
Such aren't worthy of being called arguments. It's just nonsense being spilled from mouths of indoctrinated.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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19-01-2016, 03:31 AM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
Prenuptial what?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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19-01-2016, 03:48 AM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
It's a logically invalid position. It's proponents claim it's a reasoned approach to the existence of a god.........but there is no reasoning at all.

It's mental flatulence for the delusional.

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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19-01-2016, 06:48 AM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
I had to Google "presuppositionalism". Confused
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19-01-2016, 07:16 AM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
(19-01-2016 06:48 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I had to Google "presuppositionalism". Confused

Here is an example:
TTA: Refining Reason Debate
I would say this debate sums it up fairly well.

It's not an easy listen, because Sye is an idiot, but it is worth hearing.

Matt Dillahunty talks about it in the counter-apologetics TTA podcast. He also does a couple of commentary videos on his youtube channel.

The presuppositional argument does not qualify as an argument, but it sounds good to believers and it's simple. Especially if you have a group of people that are already encouraged not to think.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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19-01-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
(19-01-2016 07:16 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 06:48 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I had to Google "presuppositionalism". Confused

Here is an example:
TTA: Refining Reason Debate
I would say this debate sums it up fairly well.

It's not an easy listen, because Sye is an idiot, but it is worth hearing.

Matt Dillahunty talks about it in the counter-apologetics TTA podcast. He also does a couple of commentary videos on his youtube channel.

The presuppositional argument does not qualify as an argument, but it sounds good to believers and it's simple. Especially if you have a group of people that are already encouraged not to think.

Presuppositionalism is not about getting to the truth. It counts on the ignorance of it's marks in order to get one to throw up one's hands and say I don't know, must be God did it. To the extent that it is an argument it is an argument from ignorance. When asked if I could be wrong about everything I know my answer would be no I couldn't be. The problem is that every atheist he goes up against is a skeptic.

I would turn his question around on him and ask him since knowledge is conceptual an Christianity has no theory of concepts, how does he account for knowledge and then watch him tap dance around.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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19-01-2016, 08:32 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2016 09:19 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
(19-01-2016 02:25 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  How do you deal with or answer presuppositional arguments about the existence of a supreme Being???

He also has this schtick were he asks you if you use your reason and senses to validate yor reason and sences, implying that you are somehow reasoning in a circle. But the validity of the senses and reason are axiomatic. His question counts on the very thing which he is attempting to question the validity of, the senses and reason. Since consciousness is an axiomatic concept, so is the validity of its means. Plus not all validation is deductive in nature and circularity only applies to deductive arguments. Reason is validated by the fact that is is our means of identifying and integrating the information brought to us by our senses. And there is nothing circular about identifying and integrating the steps we take in this process. Since we can directly observe this process through introspection there is no circularity.

Edit: changed inductive to deductive which is what I meant.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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19-01-2016, 08:55 AM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
(19-01-2016 08:32 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 02:25 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  How do you deal with or answer presuppositional arguments about the existence of a supreme Being???

He also has this shtick were he asks you if you use your reason and senses to validate yor reason and sences, implying that you are somehow reasoning in a circle. But the validity of the senses and reason are axiomatic. His question counts on the very thing which he is attempting to question the validity of, the senses and reason. Since consciousness is an axiomatic concept, so is the validity of its means. Plus not all validation is inductive in nature and circularity only applies to deductive arguments. Reason is validated by the fact that is is our means of identifying and integrating the information brought to us by our senses. And there is nothing circular about identifying and integrating the steps we take in this process. Since we can directly observe this process through introspection there is no circularity.

This is the crux of his double standard:
When an atheist "reason to justify reason" it's a "vicious circle".
When he uses "god to justify god" it's "virtuously circular".

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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