Presuppositional arguments....
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19-01-2016, 09:09 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2016 09:15 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: Presuppositional arguments....

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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19-01-2016, 09:18 AM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
(19-01-2016 08:55 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 08:32 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  He also has this shtick were he asks you if you use your reason and senses to validate yor reason and sences, implying that you are somehow reasoning in a circle. But the validity of the senses and reason are axiomatic. His question counts on the very thing which he is attempting to question the validity of, the senses and reason. Since consciousness is an axiomatic concept, so is the validity of its means. Plus not all validation is inductive in nature and circularity only applies to deductive arguments. Reason is validated by the fact that is is our means of identifying and integrating the information brought to us by our senses. And there is nothing circular about identifying and integrating the steps we take in this process. Since we can directly observe this process through introspection there is no circularity.

This is the crux of his double standard:
When an atheist "reason to justify reason" it's a "vicious circle".
When he uses "god to justify god" it's "virtuously circular".

Objectivists know that what is needed to short circuit Sye's tactics is an objective starting point that reason is based on. We have that in the axioms, the primacy of existence and the objective theory of concepts. The fact is that in order to claim that his God exists he must assume my starting point but the content of his claim denies it. Every time he claims his God exists he is performatively contradicting himself. Skeptics won't know this and so they are putty in his hands. Agnosticshane would be totally philosophically un-armed against him.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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19-01-2016, 09:23 AM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
(19-01-2016 08:55 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 08:32 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  He also has this shtick were he asks you if you use your reason and senses to validate yor reason and sences, implying that you are somehow reasoning in a circle. But the validity of the senses and reason are axiomatic. His question counts on the very thing which he is attempting to question the validity of, the senses and reason. Since consciousness is an axiomatic concept, so is the validity of its means. Plus not all validation is inductive in nature and circularity only applies to deductive arguments. Reason is validated by the fact that is is our means of identifying and integrating the information brought to us by our senses. And there is nothing circular about identifying and integrating the steps we take in this process. Since we can directly observe this process through introspection there is no circularity.

This is the crux of his double standard:
When an atheist "reason to justify reason" it's a "vicious circle".
When he uses "god to justify god" it's "virtuously circular".

Yes you are right. It is totally circular. Just as his other tactic of claiming that everyone already knows that God exists and we just suppress this knowledge because we want to sin. How does he know this? Because it says so in the Bible. He is the most smarmy, greasy, dishonest person I think I've ever seen. He should be an absolute embarrassment to Christians, instead he is seen by many as a rock star.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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[+] 1 user Likes true scotsman's post
19-01-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
My problem with it is that the people who make this claim aren't coming from a position that is in 100% agreement. If anything it would be hard to tell who god is talking to or not because every christian claims god shows things to them that they can know for certain.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
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19-01-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
My favourite destruction of the argument is this demonstration of its absurdity from Tyler in Memphis...

From 1:21:00




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19-01-2016, 06:56 PM
RE: Presuppositional arguments....
(19-01-2016 06:35 PM)DLJ Wrote:  My favourite destruction of the argument is this demonstration of its absurdity from Tyler in Memphis...

From 1:21:00




I knew I shouldn't have looked at this thread. Every time I hear Sye speak I wanna hit something.
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