Presuppositionalism
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21-10-2012, 12:32 AM
Presuppositionalism
I'm usually not the person to start a conversation, so I really don't know what to say. (Also my punctuation is horrible, sorry)

I was just wondering if anyone else has a solution, or is annoyed with, presuppositonal apologetics? It seems to me that really it can be used to defend any position with an impenetrable hedge of "you just don't get it because you don't assume my assumption. If you did it would make perfect sense!". It really irks me because my stupid brain can't think of a way to show a person how dishonest such a line of arguing is. Your thoughts?
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21-10-2012, 12:34 AM
RE: Presuppositionalism
I usually respond with, "Cool. So you're an idiot and proud of it. Have a good one. Bye."

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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21-10-2012, 01:53 AM
RE: Presuppositionalism
(21-10-2012 12:32 AM)THEDEATHBERRY22 Wrote:  I'm usually not the person to start a conversation, so I really don't know what to say. (Also my punctuation is horrible, sorry)

I was just wondering if anyone else has a solution, or is annoyed with, presuppositonal apologetics? It seems to me that really it can be used to defend any position with an impenetrable hedge of "you just don't get it because you don't assume my assumption. If you did it would make perfect sense!". It really irks me because my stupid brain can't think of a way to show a person how dishonest such a line of arguing is. Your thoughts?

We have discussed this here somewhere. Probably in reference to Craig. He, and his whole bunch are presuppositionalists. There isn't much of a solution, except to point it out to them. I also harp on this, a lot. I tell them, (and really wish, someone would aggressively go after one of the big debaters about this in public, on tape, for all the world to see.) For example, they put up the versions of the Kalam argument, and go down the steps, to make it "appear" they are using Logic. Then at the end, they Special Plead their deity out of the argument. So really they entered the Logic argument in "bad faith", as they knew ahead of time, what they were going to do. Why not just say, "my god is illogical", and I don't care.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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21-10-2012, 03:51 AM
RE: Presuppositionalism
(21-10-2012 12:32 AM)THEDEATHBERRY22 Wrote:  I'm usually not the person to start a conversation, so I really don't know what to say. (Also my punctuation is horrible, sorry)

I was just wondering if anyone else has a solution, or is annoyed with, presuppositonal apologetics? It seems to me that really it can be used to defend any position with an impenetrable hedge of "you just don't get it because you don't assume my assumption. If you did it would make perfect sense!". It really irks me because my stupid brain can't think of a way to show a person how dishonest such a line of arguing is. Your thoughts?

depends on the presupposition, and if it has any empirical evidence to support it.
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21-10-2012, 05:28 AM
RE: Presuppositionalism
I can't believe Craig is still using the Moral Argument. I'm baffled by the fact that someone with a PhD can be so ignorant of the world he lives in. That being said, I've recently watched a debate between Christopher Hitchens and the presuppositionalist Dinesh D'Souza. The argument of latter debater can be summed up with the "God of the gaps" fallacy. He argued that because science has yet to find out the origins of life and the universe and because there are flaws in the theory of evolution and the science of cosmology, it must have been god. He proves his point by committing the fallacy of the false analogy several times. It's tiresome, really.

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21-10-2012, 05:32 AM
RE: Presuppositionalism
Generally presuppositionalism falls back on the bible itself. If someone starts with presupposition, I get to the point fairly quickly.... "What is the core foundation of evidence you are using to support this?" and don't let them dodge questions, make them answer it. If it falls to, "You have to have the presuppositional stance that the bible is true." or "The bible" then I usually just say we're done here unless you have something more than the bible to support the bible. It's circular and a waste of time.

Do we get tired of it? Yeah, of course. But honestly about the only thing you can do is show the flaw in the argument, bring up a similar point of counter-presuppositionalism (ex: well harry potter is real because there's a book. I have nothing other than the book to support it.) since it's essentially the same logic.

Anywho...
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21-10-2012, 05:35 AM
RE: Presuppositionalism
The claims are sound and solid, until we get to the question what's about allah, zeus, osiris and all the other god's.
As far as i understand the term "presuppositonal apologetics" it is the attempt to defend there belief in god(for sure the christian one) and his scriptures.
The one and only god did not need the help of his followers to convince me, to belief.
If i listen to the music of some sort, i decide to become a member of the Fanclub or not.
It depends on the music, not on the other fanclub-members.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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21-10-2012, 06:12 AM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2012 06:17 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Presuppositionalism
(21-10-2012 05:35 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  The claims are sound and solid, until we get to the question what's about allah, zeus, osiris and all the other god's.
As far as i understand the term "presuppositonal apologetics" it is the attempt to defend there belief in god(for sure the christian one) and his scriptures.
The one and only god did not need the help of his followers to convince me, to belief.
If i listen to the music of some sort, i decide to become a member of the Fanclub or not.
It depends on the music, not on the other fanclub-members.
Funny you should mention that. Has anyone here seen a debate with an apologist who argued for the existence of a theistic god? Thinking about it, I've never heard an argument to support the existence of a deity that cares about the humans and what they do. Every apologist I've seen debating has been arguing for a deistic god. That, and I haven't heard an argument supporting that the creator of the universe has to be a sentient being and cannot be some unknown force.

For the pure entertainment value, you should watch the debates between Craig and other theists. Hilarious.

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21-10-2012, 06:51 AM
RE: Presuppositionalism
(21-10-2012 06:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Funny you should mention that. Has anyone here seen a debate with an apologist who argued for the existence of a theistic god? Thinking about it, I've never heard an argument to support the existence of a deity that cares about the humans and what they do. Every apologist I've seen debating has been arguing for a deistic god. That, and I haven't heard an argument supporting that the creator of the universe has to be a sentient being and cannot be some unknown force.

For the pure entertainment value, you should watch the debates between Craig and other theists. Hilarious.

Maybe it's a matter of different understandings of the term.
As far as i know the first apologetic advice is in First Peter 3,15:
"Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone (ἀπολογίαν), according to the reasonableness (" λόγος ") asks the hope that is in you."

From Justin the Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian to Thomas of Aquin, they all where defender (apologetics) of there belief, and it seems clear to me, they where theists, because they claimed the bible is the truth.
And as far as i understand the bible, the big boss is very interested in his creation.
But thanks for your hint to Craig, i'll watch it.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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21-10-2012, 06:56 AM
RE: Presuppositionalism
(21-10-2012 06:51 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  Maybe it's a matter of different understandings of the term.
As far as i know the first apologetic advice is in First Peter 3,15:
"Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone (ἀπολογίαν), according to the reasonableness (" λόγος ") asks the hope that is in you."
Thanks for that verse. I should show that one to my religion teacher. Wink

(21-10-2012 06:51 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  From Justin the Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian to Thomas of Aquin, they all where defender (apologetics) of there belief, and it seems clear to me, they where theists, because they claimed the bible is the truth.
And as far as i understand the bible, the big boss is very interested in his creation.
But thanks for your hint to Craig, i'll watch it.
Apologetics usually don't bring up scripture in their philosophical acrobatics. Dinesh D'Souza, for example, specifically mentioned in his debate with Hitchens that he isn't going to make any references to revelation and the Bible in general.

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