Presuppositionalism and the magical fruit
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
02-10-2014, 10:09 AM
Presuppositionalism and the magical fruit
Presuppositionalism, this type of apologetic just really irritates me; it is a begging the question fallacy turned into a childish debate tactic. It also just smacks of dishonesty, you cloak your presupposition using cute little word games and confusing philosophy. After witnessing this, you’re left with a feeling of being hoodwinked by a used-car salesman.

I thought perhaps one could use a mind experiment to run through what we would see manifested in the real world if what a presuppositionalist says is fact, so here goes….

The presuppositionalist states that all knowledge is revealed by god and logic is created by god, so basically we cannot understand or rationalize anything without god.

In such a world, basic perception and senses are useless. Why have eyeballs to see or a brain to process when everything is revealed by god and uses a process of logic that is independent of your brain?

The universe itself is superfluous; you are only a dis-embodied consciousness that is given input and rigid laws of processing those inputs by god. You are a brain in a vat! Free will is impossible in this perverse reality.

We can even go to the creation myth to see that this is a mindset that is askew of what they believe. In the Garden of Eden, a talking serpent imparted knowledge to Eve, telling her the benefit of eating the magic fruit. She processed the benefit of doing this, liked what she heard, and ate of the fruit. She imparted this knowledge to Adam and he followed suit. It is clear that knowledge was indeed imparted by non-god entities- the serpent to Eve and Eve to Adam. God wasn’t even aware that it had happened!

This was also BEFORE the fall of man! Do you get that? If the presupp view has any truth to it, then imparting knowledge, other than that which came from god, would not be possible before the fall of man-within the context of Judeo-Christian myth! We’ll never hear STB’s explanation of why that is because “he doesn’t discuss the bible with non-believers”. Of course you don’t, huckster; you have a religion to sell.

It is obvious why knowledge or truth is not imparted by god, first of all, there is no such thing as absolute truth, this is an imaginary concept that only works when you’re describing an imaginary being.

If truth and knowledge are imparted by god, then there is no reason for a brain to process things. Rules of logic are generated by the human mind, how do we know this? For example; we were able to construct a computer with the ability to beat the world chess champion, a team of engineers devised the rules and logic that could defeat a human and it was human minds that built that. Why would god cooperate with engineers to give them the set of logical rules to make a chess program? Obviously we can create rules of logic on demand and in exacting engineering precision in accordance to the tasks we need to accomplish.
We humans can generate a lot of sensible things and nonsensical things; we make faulty judgments and brilliant judgments, good and bad. This chaotic mess is easily explained by individual primate minds making their own judgments with their own knowledge that is imperfectly learned through the chaotic world around us.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheInquisition's post
02-10-2014, 10:17 AM
RE: Presuppositionalism and the magical fruit
It is total circular. No matter what you throw at them you get some form of "Because God" as an answer. They do not want any other reason. A discussion is a waist of time.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes wazzel's post
02-10-2014, 10:21 AM
RE: Presuppositionalism and the magical fruit
IF GOD THEN GOD
GOD
THEREFORE GOD

CHECKMATE ATHEISTS

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
02-10-2014, 04:43 PM
RE: Presuppositionalism and the magical fruit
Here's a graphic I did, let me if there is a better way to compare or illustrate this:

[Image: presup_zpsc113b63d.jpg]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheInquisition's post
02-10-2014, 04:58 PM
RE: Presuppositionalism and the magical fruit
Yeah, It really is circular, and I knew that. You made a lot of good points about input from senses that I never thought about, but again, I never really put any real thought into the fallacies of Prestupidism.


My Youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEkRdbq...rLEz-0jEHQ
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Shadow Fox's post
02-10-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: Presuppositionalism and the magical fruit
Conversely secular logic, in the main, goes back to the big bang as its first premise.
Pre big bang (what and why x banged) remains an existential unknown.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-10-2014, 05:09 PM
RE: Presuppositionalism and the magical fruit
(02-10-2014 05:05 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Conversely secular logic, in the main, goes back to the big bang as its first premise.
Pre big bang (what and why x banged) remains an existential unknown.

I like to think of the big bang as something that could had been a lot more like a Big Expansion then an actual bang itself. I wonder if that has ever been tested as a possibility. To me, it would make a little more sense for X to have somehow started and then simply expanded with the erupting energy filling it and pushing it outward. Cannot have an explosion if nothing exists outside for it to explode into, so I think it was more of an expansion with exploding stuff inside of it forcing it to get bigger and Who knows how fast.


My Youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEkRdbq...rLEz-0jEHQ
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-10-2014, 05:19 PM
RE: Presuppositionalism and the magical fruit
(02-10-2014 05:09 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(02-10-2014 05:05 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Conversely secular logic, in the main, goes back to the big bang as its first premise.
Pre big bang (what and why x banged) remains an existential unknown.

I like to think of the big bang as something that could had been a lot more like a Big Expansion then an actual bang itself. I wonder if that has ever been tested as a possibility. To me, it would make a little more sense for X to have somehow started and then simply expanded with the erupting energy filling it and pushing it outward. Cannot have an explosion if nothing exists outside for it to explode into, so I think it was more of an expansion with exploding stuff inside of it forcing it to get bigger and Who knows how fast.

"Explosion" is a misnomer and leads to that misunderstanding.

Your image is more correct.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-10-2014, 05:22 PM
RE: Presuppositionalism and the magical fruit
(02-10-2014 05:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-10-2014 05:09 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I like to think of the big bang as something that could had been a lot more like a Big Expansion then an actual bang itself. I wonder if that has ever been tested as a possibility. To me, it would make a little more sense for X to have somehow started and then simply expanded with the erupting energy filling it and pushing it outward. Cannot have an explosion if nothing exists outside for it to explode into, so I think it was more of an expansion with exploding stuff inside of it forcing it to get bigger and Who knows how fast.

"Explosion" is a misnomer and leads to that misunderstanding.

Your image is more correct.

Quite true.

Which mostly stems from the fact that the name was coined by the theory's detractors, rather than its proponents...

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-10-2014, 04:31 AM
RE: Presuppositionalism and the magical fruit
(02-10-2014 05:22 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(02-10-2014 05:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  "Explosion" is a misnomer and leads to that misunderstanding.

Your image is more correct.

Quite true.

Which mostly stems from the fact that the name was coined by the theory's detractors, rather than its proponents...

Yep, we can thank Fred Hoyle for that one.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: