Pretty cool how you attack... .
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18-07-2015, 06:18 AM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(18-07-2015 02:27 AM)Logisch Wrote:  
(18-07-2015 02:14 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  So your point is that life goes on. Or existence goes on. My point is that we are the potential for change and through universal unity our potential could actually be universally manipulative for good or bad. As you know everything goes along its path without question but us. As you know there is infinite potential in the Universe. Could our unique consciousness of the Universe be tied to our very fate as a species or planet. Through our knowledge ( not just science) do we have the potential to change out fate? Also if the Universe is God and we are part of the Universe then God is literally and intricately attached to us whether we see it or not. Thanks for being equally civil.

Not sure if you are speaking to me or not. Based on your reply I'll assume thus.

If so then yes, what I am saying is that life goes on. Or rather, "things go on" without life, if that ends up being the case. Things continue existing, either way.

Certainly, our unique stance of being the only conscious part of the universe (that we know of) would make a difference in understanding the universe, progress, etc.

I suppose it would be an existentialist, even potentially narcissistic perspective with some ego attached for me to say, "If we are that part of the universe, then we are responsible for taking that as far as we can go. If we don't, who will? Us."

We are of course perfectly capable of changing our fate, if our fate is to snuff ourselves out from disagreement and nuclear holocaust that would be potentially inevitable as technology progresses. Should we choose to get along, spread out, seek knowledge and understanding how the universe works, we'd be far from limited to this rock called Earth, and who knows how far it could take us.

If one wants to call the universe "God" then so be it. Some call nature god, some call god the experience we call life, some of my pagan friends see "god" as nature, and the natural things around us. If you wish to see it from that perspective, intricately connected to the universe, however you wish to call it, you are regardless a participant. You are connected to the universe because the atoms that make up your body, and the atoms that make up the stars, planets, and the rest of the universe all came from the same infinitesimal point. However you wish to attribute it, we are all connected. I hope that clarifies what I am trying to say.

Some may call that God, and I can understand that from those that see things from a Deist perspective. I try to understand things in as simple a manner as possible, so if I can explain things without an extra explanation, I choose that path (Occam's Razor). However, I can understand how some call that God. I largely see myself as an agnostic atheist, or rather, "I can't prove there is a god as much as I can prove there isn't. I don't think one probably exists. If one did, then it'd be responsible for the way things were, and then left things alone, and probably doesn't give a damn afterwards." I still think that's highly unlikely, but I'm not going to jump on the burden of proof train and choochoo down the tracks of logical fallacies, it's a slippery slope.

It's inconsequential to me whether one exists or doesn't. I can simply understand what is, what might be, and do my best to be a good person, and hope that others follow suit in a manner that is beneficial to our species, taking care of our planet, and our place in the universe.
Nice!
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18-07-2015, 06:21 AM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(18-07-2015 02:27 AM)Logisch Wrote:  
(18-07-2015 02:14 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  So your point is that life goes on. Or existence goes on. My point is that we are the potential for change and through universal unity our potential could actually be universally manipulative for good or bad. As you know everything goes along its path without question but us. As you know there is infinite potential in the Universe. Could our unique consciousness of the Universe be tied to our very fate as a species or planet. Through our knowledge ( not just science) do we have the potential to change out fate? Also if the Universe is God and we are part of the Universe then God is literally and intricately attached to us whether we see it or not. Thanks for being equally civil.

Not sure if you are speaking to me or not. Based on your reply I'll assume thus.

If so then yes, what I am saying is that life goes on. Or rather, "things go on" without life, if that ends up being the case. Things continue existing, either way.

Certainly, our unique stance of being the only conscious part of the universe (that we know of) would make a difference in understanding the universe, progress, etc.

I suppose it would be an existentialist, even potentially narcissistic perspective with some ego attached for me to say, "If we are that part of the universe, then we are responsible for taking that as far as we can go. If we don't, who will? Us."

We are of course perfectly capable of changing our fate, if our fate is to snuff ourselves out from disagreement and nuclear holocaust that would be potentially inevitable as technology progresses. Should we choose to get along, spread out, seek knowledge and understanding how the universe works, we'd be far from limited to this rock called Earth, and who knows how far it could take us.

If one wants to call the universe "God" then so be it. Some call nature god, some call god the experience we call life, some of my pagan friends see "god" as nature, and the natural things around us. If you wish to see it from that perspective, intricately connected to the universe, however you wish to call it, you are regardless a participant. You are connected to the universe because the atoms that make up your body, and the atoms that make up the stars, planets, and the rest of the universe all came from the same infinitesimal point. However you wish to attribute it, we are all connected. I hope that clarifies what I am trying to say.

Some may call that God, and I can understand that from those that see things from a Deist perspective. I try to understand things in as simple a manner as possible, so if I can explain things without an extra explanation, I choose that path (Occam's Razor). However, I can understand how some call that God. I largely see myself as an agnostic atheist, or rather, "I can't prove there is a god as much as I can prove there isn't. I don't think one probably exists. If one did, then it'd be responsible for the way things were, and then left things alone, and probably doesn't give a damn afterwards." I still think that's highly unlikely, but I'm not going to jump on the burden of proof train and choochoo down the tracks of logical fallacies, it's a slippery slope.

It's inconsequential to me whether one exists or doesn't. I can simply understand what is, what might be, and do my best to be a good person, and hope that others follow suit in a manner that is beneficial to our species, taking care of our planet, and our place in the universe.
Not that it is or isn't my place, but I can't add for more than that. That may very well be the best attempt at unbiased explanation of beliefs, or lack there of I have heard from anyone, including those who consider themselves believers.

Thanks again, there is hope.
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18-07-2015, 07:24 AM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
@popsthebuilder

Don’t you think your title and opening post sounds a lot like an ad hominem attack instead of the start of a polite discussion?
Have you considered that you are projecting a lot of human values and characteristics to matter, energy and the universe at large?

Have you considered that order, chaos, good, evil, fate and destiny are all human concept (poorly defined and shifting concept) that we use to regulate our society and order what we see in something that relate to our experience?

Have you considered that in the universe chaos may be completely undistinguishable from order and good and evil irrelevant?

Did you ever studied physic extensively to verify your beliefs about movement in the universe and how matter and energy interact?

Do you have a comprehensive level of understanding of sociology and anthropology to verify your beliefs about human social construct?

Did you read on philosophy to see if your questions or beliefs have already been study?

Can you explain your beliefs precisely by answering precisely to all those questions with credible sources to back you when necessary and when you are borrowing or paraphrasing other people works and ideas?
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18-07-2015, 08:17 AM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(18-07-2015 02:14 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  As you know everything goes along its path without question but us.

Really? You don't think other animals question things?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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18-07-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(18-07-2015 08:17 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-07-2015 02:14 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  As you know everything goes along its path without question but us.

Really? You don't think other animals question things?

Well no, he doesn't think .... he knows. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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18-07-2015, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2015 03:39 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Fall in back on that same shit I see.
Considering that you have been making the exact same "argument" since you got here despite multiple people explain, in great detail, why it's wrong...your opening sentence is hilariously hypocritical. See now my "same old shit" is telling you that with out proof of it's existence your assertion and false claim to knowledge are effectively worthless which is a logically sound position to hold. Your "same old shit" is to make assertions without evidence, to ignore logical reasoning when formulating "arguments", and to demand that unlike every single other claim ever made by anyone that YOU don't have to prove anything. Which is NOT a sound position.
Your way of thinking is in violation of the Null Hypothesis, Occam's Razor, logical reasoning, and plain common sense.

You can throw your temper tantrum's all day long about our inability to prove you wrong but until you provide a coherent thought with enough depth to actually test and evaluate (or hell even some proper definitions) then there is nothing for us to disprove. The thing you are not realizing is that this is not a debate. This is you making up stuff with out justification and me dismissing it as nonsense for that lack of justification. You have not left the starting gate and you don't even realize it.

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  If I'm spook fucking stupid.....
[Image: nicolas-cage-laughing.gif]
That was the best place you could have fucked up your typing, hahaha.


(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  and wrong than surely you can prove that some way...right? I mean according to you I lied about science. According to you I am an ignoramus. Show me.
Now outside of just being abjectly wrong about everything you say the other way you are failing at this argument is you clearly don't take the time to comprehend whats being written to you because I proved you lied about science pages ago and have been showing you wrong for almost the entire argument.

But fine I'll reiterate for your stupid ass: Here is where you describe science as a collection of guess taken as fact....
(17-07-2015 08:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Forgery of the mind is what science causes without individual thought. Acceptance of guesses as fact is pretty much the definition of ignorance.
Which is an absolute lie as I pointed out, being not how science works AT ALL nor what the definition of ignorance is AT ALL, to which you followed up by lying that that was not a lie. Several times.

Some other things you have lied about include, but are not limited to :
You claimed your position was undeniable. It was not only factually not true you didn't even know the proper definition of the word undeniable.
You claimed to be educated in this subject. You have displayed a rank amateurish sensibility when it comes to discussing this very topic, mostly you just throw insults to cover up your total lack of an argument.
You claimed to not be lying when confronted with your lying.
You claimed to not be ignorant despite yourself fitting under the very definition of ignorant YOU GAVE US.
You have lied several times by claiming I said things I did not, such as that I believe my life has no meaning for example and when you accuse me of being a self proclaimed drunk which never fucking happened.
You make claims to knowledge you do not in fact have which is lying by definition.

Shall I go on? Cause that's almost all just from ONE of your posts.Drinking Beverage

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  You get angry because you can't prove the fucking retarded wrong. I'd be pissed too.
Christian tactic #245: if your argument is being destroyed just accuse your opponent of being mad. Bonus points if you make the accusation while in the middle of a giant hissy fit insult without any actual argument.Drinking Beverage
I'm not mad kid I'm actually quite entertained, been a while since I got to play with a believer as abjectly stupid and dishonest as you. I'm having fun trying to ram reason and critical thinking into that shriveled up and under used collection of grey between your ears.


(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Don't loose any sleep over it.
It's adorable that you think that you have said anything of any value at all let alone something I would lose sleep over.Laugh out load

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I don't need someone to justify my thoughts
Ya except I'm not trying to justify your thoughts now am I shit for brains? I'm trying to explain to you that your beliefs are without any justification at all. Soooo you know ...literally the exact opposite but good try.

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  if they can't even prove a moron wrong.
Done it several time and did it again in this post as well. So that's also a lie. Hilarious.Thumbsup

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Hell, if my kid kicks a dog I can completely explain to him how, and why that shit was wrong. So what was your excuse?
A child is real and can be demonstrated, a dog is real and can be demonstrated, the action is real and can be demonstrated so the difference is that nothing you say can be demonstrated to be real at all because it's all in your fucking head.
Provide your beliefs demonstrable qualities and I'll be happy to explain it to you, until then stop using shitty analogies that prove MY point. You're taking all the fun away when you do my work for me.

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ... Oh yeah, not your place.
You are confusing the fact that it's not my responsibility to disprove unproven bullshit with it being "not my place". Something is considered to not be true until it is demonstrated to be true. That's how investigation works in all areas of life. It's up to the court to prove you killed someone not you to prove that you did not.
Here is why the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim (you) and not the other person. Because without it I could just say:
"I know your beliefs are incorrect and it's up to you to prove me wrong."
Now I've just invalidated your ENTIRE argument... with your own argument.

The burden of proof works the way it does for a very specific reason and it motherfucking applies to you you dumb fuck.
If I accused you of being a rapist is it up to me to provide evidence that you are a rapist or is it up to you to prove you never raped anyone? Am I and others justified in labeling and treating you as a rapist because you can't prove that you are not one?
Some how I doubt I'll get an honest answer to that question lol.
(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I need some clarity from a self proclaimed drunk.
Ha ha ha ha. Why don't you quote me proclaiming to be a drunk. It would be a rather impressive feat to see considering that I utterly hate being drunk, have never once claimed that I was even drinking let alone drunk, and even refused your suggestion that I go drink.

You know that claiming I proclaimed I was a drunk when I didn't is a lie right? You fucking lier. Laugh out load

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Too bad I'm here for th greater good, and not the individual, right.
No not right, you are here to be a borderline illiterate troll and a stupid cunt and I fail to see the good in that. Outside of my entertainment that is. Drinking Beverage

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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18-07-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
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Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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18-07-2015, 07:27 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
Epronovost,
Title and opening would seem misleading to anyone just coming in to conversation. I didn't mean for that to happen.

Not really human values in that we are the only things in the observable Universe that have a choice/ opportunity. Every. Thing else, even other mammals that do seem to be able th make desisions based on a thought process of sorts still go along there chosen path with majestic grace. The only human quality is the disregard that we show for the obvious direction on the righteous path.

Chaos is without reason or direction. Universally many things could be attributed to chaos in that we can't tell exactly what they do or how But they seam to hold the Awesome power of the Universe from expanding at an ever exponentially multiplying rate. There are things that seem to absorb and purify energy to infinite muniteness. There are maybe a handful of things in the Universe that do not seem to go along any preordained path. These things don't seem to be bad, or evil, and don't seem to destroy energy. The seem to gather and store it. This is potential energy or just potential. This is Universal Chaos. Infinite potential.

It is my belief that the rest of the Universe doesn't really need this potential to keep on doing just fine, or to attain it's goal of being. It does seem to be slowly expanding, but maybe that's not too big of a deal. However is you can see the goal of negative energy as to literally not be, or be the opposite of good in every way, or to somehow conquer creation then this energy in its mostly apparent and perhaps only form; in humanity on earth has the potential through our chaos (indifference/ lack of directed action even with knowledge/ potential, waste of energy) to do just that.

My belief is that we were not instilled with the potential to destroy everything without also attaining the potintial to unify everything somehow, or to come into perfect harmony with creation.

I'm sure that was pretty choppy. It's difficult to express for me. Others will be able to word better.

Chaos, by definition cannot be order. If good and evil were irrelevant then they wouldn't trigger such dramatic responses from curtain individuals through emotion which is the acknowledgement of personal importance. We are a product of the Universe and henceforth tied to it intricately like our mother or father. Not literal, remember?

No. I have always been intrigued by the happenings of the Universe. any scientific knowledge I may or may not have on the subject would be from studying documentaries, or science shows. A lot. Pretty funny huh?

Knowledge of society is from observation/ experience.

Never studied philosophy. Have always been drawn to it as well.

Frankly, no, and no.

No prove because of lack of knowledge of where to look and lack if time. Nothing has been borrowed from. Only my experience, what was literally shown to me through some salvation, and the backing of every religious text I have read thus far.

Thanks. That was rough. Sorry, it must seem vague. Really it's just simple like all good thought.
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18-07-2015, 07:28 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(18-07-2015 08:17 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-07-2015 02:14 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  As you know everything goes along its path without question but us.

Really? You don't think other animals question things?
Sure some do. That's the whole point. They know better. So do we. We refuse to listen to our own knowledge.
(18-07-2015 07:24 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @popsthebuilder

Don’t you think your title and opening post sounds a lot like an ad hominem attack instead of the start of a polite discussion?
Have you considered that you are projecting a lot of human values and characteristics to matter, energy and the universe at large?

Have you considered that order, chaos, good, evil, fate and destiny are all human concept (poorly defined and shifting concept) that we use to regulate our society and order what we see in something that relate to our experience?

Have you considered that in the universe chaos may be completely undistinguishable from order and good and evil irrelevant?

Did you ever studied physic extensively to verify your beliefs about movement in the universe and how matter and energy interact?

Do you have a comprehensive level of understanding of sociology and anthropology to verify your beliefs about human social construct?

Did you read on philosophy to see if your questions or beliefs have already been study?

Can you explain your beliefs precisely by answering precisely to all those questions with credible sources to back you when necessary and when you are borrowing or paraphrasing other people works and ideas?
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18-07-2015, 07:34 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(18-07-2015 10:38 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Fall in back on that same shit I see.
Considering that you have been making the exact same "argument" since you got here despite multiple people explain, in great detail, why it's wrong...your opening sentence is hilariously hypocritical. See now my "same old shit" is telling you that with out proof of it's existence your assertion and false claim to knowledge are effectively worthless which is a logically sound position to hold. Your "same old shit" is to make assertions without evidence, to ignore logical reasoning when formulating "arguments", and to demand that unlike every single other claim ever made by anyone that YOU don't have to prove anything. Which is NOT a sound position.
Your way of thinking is in violation of the Null Hypothesis, Occam's Razor, logical reasoning, and plain common sense.

You can throw your temper tantrum's all day long about our inability to prove you wrong but until you provide a coherent thought with enough depth to actually test and evaluate (or hell even some proper definitions) then there is nothing for us to disprove. The thing you are not realizing is that this is not a debate. This is you making up stuff with out justification and me dismissing it as nonsense for that lack of justification. You have not left the starting gate and you don't even realize it.

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  If I'm spook fucking stupid.....
[Image: nicolas-cage-laughing.gif]
That was the best place you could have fucked up your typing, hahaha.


(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  and wrong than surely you can prove that some way...right? I mean according to you I lied about science. According to you I am an ignoramus. Show me.
Now outside of just being abjectly wrong about everything you say the other way you are failing at this argument is you clearly don't take the time to comprehend whats being written to you because I proved you lied about science pages ago and have been showing you wrong for almost the entire argument.

But fine I'll reiterate for your stupid ass: Here is where you describe science as a collection of guess taken as fact....
(17-07-2015 08:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Forgery of the mind is what science causes without individual thought. Acceptance of guesses as fact is pretty much the definition of ignorance.
Which is an absolute lie as I pointed out, being not how science works AT ALL nor what the definition of ignorance is AT ALL, to which you followed up by lying that that was not a lie. Several times.

Some other things you have lied about include, but are not limited to :
You claimed your position was undeniable. It was not only factually not true you didn't even know the proper definition of the word undeniable.
You claimed to be educated in this subject. You have displayed a rank amateurish sensibility when it comes to discussing this very topic, mostly you just throw insults to cover up your total lack of an argument.
You claimed to not be lying when confronted with your lying.
You claimed to not be ignorant despite yourself fitting under the very definition of ignorant YOU GAVE US.
You have lied several times by claiming I said things I did not, such as that I believe my life has no meaning for example and when you accuse me of being a self proclaimed drunk which never fucking happened.
You make claims to knowledge you do not in fact have which is lying by definition.

Shall I go on? Cause that's almost all just from ONE of your posts.Drinking Beverage

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  You get angry because you can't prove the fucking retarded wrong. I'd be pissed too.
Christian tactic #245: if your argument is being destroyed just accuse your opponent of being mad. Bonus points if you make the accusation while in the middle of a giant hissy fit insult without any actual argument.Drinking Beverage
I'm not mad kid I'm actually quite entertained, been a while since I got to play with a believer as abjectly stupid and dishonest as you. I'm having fun trying to ram reason and critical thinking into that shriveled up and under used collection of grey between your ears.


(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Don't loose any sleep over it.
It's adorable that you think that you have said anything of any value at all let alone something I would lose sleep over.Laugh out load

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I don't need someone to justify my thoughts
Ya except I'm not trying to justify your thoughts now am I shit for brains? I'm trying to explain to you that your beliefs are without any justification at all. Soooo you know ...literally the exact opposite but good try.

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  if they can't even prove a moron wrong.
Done it several time and did it again in this post as well. So that's also a lie. Hilarious.Thumbsup

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Hell, if my kid kicks a dog I can completely explain to him how, and why that shit was wrong. So what was your excuse?
A child is real and can be demonstrated, a dog is real and can be demonstrated, the action is real and can be demonstrated so the difference is that nothing you say can be demonstrated to be real at all because it's all in your fucking head.
Provide your beliefs demonstrable qualities and I'll be happy to explain it to you, until then stop using shitty analogies that prove MY point. You're taking all the fun away when you do my work for me.

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ... Oh yeah, not your place.
You are confusing the fact that it's not my responsibility to disprove unproven bullshit with it being "not my place". Something is considered to not be true until it is demonstrated to be true. That's how investigation works in all areas of life. It's up to the court to prove you killed someone not you to prove that you did not.
Here is why the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim (you) and not the other person. Because without it I could just say:
"I know your beliefs are incorrect and it's up to you to prove me wrong."
Now I've just invalidated your ENTIRE argument... with your own argument.

The burden of proof works the way it does for a very specific reason and it motherfucking applies to you you dumb fuck.
If I accused you of being a rapist is it up to me to provide evidence that you are a rapist or is it up to you to prove you never raped anyone? Am I and others justified in labeling and treating you as a rapist because you can't prove that you are not one?
Some how I doubt I'll get an honest answer to that question lol.
(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I need some clarity from a self proclaimed drunk.
Ha ha ha ha. Why don't you quote me proclaiming to be a drunk. It would be a rather impressive feat to see considering that I utterly hate being drunk, have never once claimed that I was even drinking let alone drunk, and even refused your suggestion that I go drink.

You know that claiming I proclaimed I was a drunk when I didn't is a lie right? You fucking lier. Laugh out load

(18-07-2015 01:56 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Too bad I'm here for th greater good, and not the individual, right.
No not right, you are here to be a borderline illiterate troll and a stupid cunt and I fail to see the good in that. Outside of my entertainment that is. Drinking Beverage
I'm sorry I don't have the patience to go through another one of your nonsensical posts just to repeat myself like you. Uhm, I said it was ignorance. And that science without proper direction was counter productive. Sorry you can't see that, but I can't right now I'm wore out from mess in with my youngest and not sleeping right lately. We'll talk or bitch again probably. Didn't read 1/20 of last post yet. I will.
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