Pretty cool how you attack... .
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21-07-2015, 09:14 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(21-07-2015 09:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 08:55 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  That doesn't pertain to knowledge from Faith though and would effectively deny Faith.

That would be a good thing. Faith is not a path to knowledge. Look at all the conflicting beliefs that exist based on faith. There is no way to distinguish truth from delusion when faith is the source.

Quote:I get confirmation. Throughout each day usually though. I question and test myself daily.

If you are questioning yourself and also confirming your beliefs to yourself then you have a nice, tight, little loop going on. It has no value. What you believe is irrelevant until you have... wait for it.... evidence to back it up.
Faith isn't the problem. Ask a Christian they will tell you there Faith is week. If they don't then it is because they confuse Faith with belief, or they are a try believer.

I don't question myself in that I doubt myself. When doubt arises I assess it completely and eradicate it through process of elimination. Contrary to popular belief belief and the scientific method can work together. Not a closed loop at all. I receive new input, information, and confirmation daily. The difference in my knowledge and science is that mine is relevant and pertains to things that haven't already been obviously pointed out.
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21-07-2015, 09:15 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
True believer, not try
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21-07-2015, 09:20 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(21-07-2015 09:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 08:55 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I have been sceptical and still am regarding much of my beliefs. That doesn't pertain to knowledge from Faith though and would effectively deny Faith. I get confirmation. Throughout each day usually though. I question and test myself daily.

Faith can provide no knowledge.
It provides all knowledge, just not in a scientifically testable way. Many things are unreadable by science, or can be tested only within strict parameters which aren't relative to the infinite possibilities of existence.
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21-07-2015, 09:22 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(21-07-2015 08:40 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yes I am a hypocrite on some levels. Thanks.
Oh! Oh! Oh! From a day ago!
(20-07-2015 05:58 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Hypocrisy isn't in the equation for me as it may be for others.

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You are so full of shit.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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21-07-2015, 09:28 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(21-07-2015 09:20 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It provides all knowledge, just not in a scientifically testable way.
Then it's not knowledge because knowledge is demonstrable and the scientific method is the only investigatory methodology which gives reliably demonstrable results.

You have a belief: you believe that you know but you don't know that you know.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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21-07-2015, 09:32 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(21-07-2015 09:02 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 08:58 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It's entirely un-skeptical to exclude something as "special status" that you are for Faith. No, even your proclaimed faith knowledge is potentially flawed as it is interpreted by your senses and brain. To not distrust this knowledge is deluding yourself, which you proclaim to be doing daily.
How is checking to make sure I am true, and taking the necessary steps to ensure I am honest with myself deluding anything?

Because by your admittance you trust in "special circumstances" and don't do it universally with regards to everything. You selectively take what style of information you check. You said yourself you don't doubt faith and trust in it... that's not skeptical. You need to be skeptical of what you are being skeptical about and not, including everything, elsewise it's arbitrary and not so efficient.

Saying faith provides knowledge just not in a testable way is special pleading.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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21-07-2015, 09:40 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(21-07-2015 09:20 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 09:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  Faith can provide no knowledge.
It provides all knowledge, just not in a scientifically testable way. Many things are unreadable by science, or can be tested only within strict parameters which aren't relative to the infinite possibilities of existence.

Meaningless jumble of words. Faith is entirely inside your head - without evidence, faith does nothing but keep you ignorant.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-07-2015, 10:15 PM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(21-07-2015 08:40 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 08:24 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Doesn't the lack of negativity in his posts just shine right through?Laugh out load
No one is perfect. Everyone here can tell I am far from perfect. What is your piont? Yes I am a hypocrite on some levels. Thanks.

Exemplify the behavior you wish to see.
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22-07-2015, 06:57 AM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(21-07-2015 09:14 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Faith isn't the problem.

Faith is the problem. Believing things without evidence and thinking you are justified in doing so is the problem.

Quote:Ask a Christian they will tell you there Faith is week. If they don't then it is because they confuse Faith with belief, or they are a try believer.

That appears to be, at best, a non-sequitur. Faith is belief without evidence so there's no confusion there, and I have no idea what a try believer is.

Quote:I don't question myself in that I doubt myself.

That's a huge part of the problem. You have decided that what you believe is what is actually true and you are completely closed off to changing your mind. It is really sad to see.

Quote:When doubt arises I assess it completely and eradicate it through process of elimination.

In other words you rationalize any conflicting information so that you maintain your current beliefs. That's why you are so completely seeped in woo that you can't understand what anybody else is saying.

Quote:Contrary to popular belief belief and the scientific method can work together.

Only when the believer is open to changing their belief based on evidence.

Quote:Not a closed loop at all. I receive new input, information, and confirmation daily.

Exactly. You take in anything you can use to confirm your belief and reject anything else as wrong. You are one of the most close-minded individuals I've dealt with in a long time.

Quote:The difference in my knowledge and science is that mine is relevant and pertains to things that haven't already been obviously pointed out.

The difference is that your beliefs, not knowledge, are all in your head. They are not supported by actual evidence and have little or no relation to reality. Fantasy can be fun, but it shouldn't be a lifestyle.

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22-07-2015, 07:44 AM
RE: Pretty cool how you attack... .
(21-07-2015 09:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 02:46 PM)Free Wrote:  If they had no meaning outside our minds, then there could never be any number of objects in the universe, even if we humans did not exist.

How can they be properties of the universe if they exist only in our minds? Consider

Where in the universe do you find addition? Differentiation? Matrices? Algebras?

We seem to be talking about 2 different things here.

1 + 1 = 2 is a human symbolic conceptualized representation of an eternally persistent universal truth.

We, as humans, are merely expressing a concept that represents that which, by necessity, must be true regardless if we exist or not. We need not to contemplate much at all as to whether or not our existence can ever change this truth, for we already know that without us it will still be true.

It's more than the conceptualized arithmetic. The symbolic representations only reveal what is already present, and do not create it.

The bigger question here is whether or not "truth" is an existence. Defining existence is paramount to understanding what is, and what is not.


Quote:There are objects in the universe, there are particles, there are forces. To count or measure or relate them requires minds.

No, to conceptualize their already existent number requires intelligence, but it requires minimal reasoning to understand that if their was no intelligence present, the number of objects would still exist. The human act of counting them is not required.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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