Pride aside...Jennifer Fulwiler
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22-05-2014, 11:39 PM
RE: Pride aside...Jennifer Fulwiler
(22-05-2014 11:18 PM)Charis Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 11:13 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Go pound sand up your ass.

Ya know, Taq.... sometimes your visuals.... are awkward as all hell. lolol I'm not sure you understand the vision in my head at the moment.

Personally I pictured a man vigorously squat thrusting the tower of a sandcastle. The logistics were challenging though Laugh out load
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22-05-2014, 11:47 PM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2014 11:51 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Pride aside...Jennifer Fulwiler
Okay, time for me to review this video.

First minute: GOOD.

~1:20: "Randomly evolved chemical reactions." Gee, for a scientifically minded person she's doing a good job at parroting the buzzwords of those who don't understand what evolution really is. Also, evolution and atheism are independent. It's possible to accept, or reject, evolution regardless of whether you're an atheist.

~1:30: "All that love that I feel for him... is nothing more than chemical reactions in our brains." This is a question of monism versus dualism, not atheism versus Christianity. There are monist atheists and dualist atheists. There are dualist Christians and even monist Christians. (They're rare, but they're out there. The attitude is that they'll be corpses in the ground from death until Christ returns, at which point they will be resurrected.)

~1:45 Okay, she's talking about all that being about spirituality rather than Christianity. Most of my "OMGOT" frustration went away.

Personally, I'm a monist. I don't see an inconsistency between powerful love being valuable and worthy and admirable and GOOD, and it being an entirely material concoction. The two just don't strike me as incoherent. Also, I don't GET dualism. I kinda vaguely have a sense that dualists have a bunch of concepts and two buckets, and they're throwing a bunch of concepts in one bucket labeled "material" and another labeled "spiritual" or something like that, but I have only the vaguest idea of how they're deciding what goes in which bucket. I've only got the one bucket, labeled "real", and stuff belongs in there if it's part of reality, and otherwise it doesn't. It SEEMS like the "spiritual" bucket is for things that people think are true but can't demonstrate, and also for any powerful emotion or ideas that produce emotional responses, but I can't be sure. I also suspect that different dualists are using vastly different rubrics in their sorting.

~2:10: The founder being God is a really easy claim to disprove if it's not true. Um.... how? Wouldn't a scientifically educated person, as this woman claims to be, look for some falsification criteria? But okay, I'll put that to everyone here. What manner of evidence would disprove the claim, beyond the ability of a believer to chalk that up to misinterpretation, or a deliberate test of faith, or whatever?

~4:15: Atheists aren't able to articulate love and triumph and hope? WTF? I've SEEN atheists do that.

~5:15: Being Christian makes you free to seek the truth? What the hell? And I mean that literally. HELL. That's Christianity's freedom to honestly seek the truth. That and, you know, bigoted bosses firing you and so on. Any atheist in a free nation can move on to wherever their search takes them, at the cost of maybe a few raspberries, but they aren't in fear of eternal torture for asking the wrong questions or exploring the wrong possibilities.

Bottom line, unconvincing video is unconvincing. It talks about how she saw arguments that persuaded her, but doesn't show them to me so that they might persuade me. It's not a persuasive piece. It's more of a "what I did for summer" piece. I'm definitely not going to convert simply to follow the flock... even if there weren't more people flocking away from Christianity than towards it.

So I went to that blog firsthand to see the arguments in question. I searched for "Jennifer Fulwiler", and the top hit is "Conversion Diary", her site. (The second hit is what Chas linked.) The Conversion Diary's earliest post was in Feb, 2006, where she explains why she changed the blog's name from "reluctant atheist". No link to it there or in the About page. Apparently all the stuff on the Conversion Diary blog is from after she converted. Okay, then. I Google "Jennifer Fulwiler reluctant atheist". And.... I don't find the old blog. All those lovely lovely arguments for converting atheists? Lost in the haze of the internet.

(Assuming they ever existed. Now, I don't doubt that there are atheists who converted, in a manner similar to what this woman is describing. But I also know that there are hucksters for Jesus who delight in spinning false witnessings that sound exactly like this one. But okay, I'll take her at her word, not because I particularly believe or disbelieve her, but because it's a minor factor to how I respond. If it's a fictional story giving good reasons, hey, good reasons. If it's a true story giving bad reasons, hey, bad reasons. But, apparently, the reasons are lost with her old blog. So, no reasons that I can find.)

To think that all of this could be avoided if she just realized that love is more than just chemicals in the brain... it's hormones and endorphins acting throughout her entire body! Kidding, of course. That's like saying all the words and sentences and ideas and descriptions and poetry that we write are just letters.

(22-05-2014 04:52 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  This story is both Gay and Retarded.

The moment she started talking about emotions is when I was convinced this is either faked or she is just that fucking retarded.

She obviously never spoke to a single Atheist if she is not faking it. Not a single one.

Hey! Don't insult gay people and the mentally handicapped like that!

(22-05-2014 08:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 06:38 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Not sure but I think I'm "the woman" Jeremy's refers to. I am a woman but I don't know if I'm "the" woman. Girl_nails

You're not. Irene Adler is 'the woman'.

[Image: BBC_Irene-Adler.jpg]

..... I'm trying to decide whether I'm supposed to be embarrassed for hitting the "like" button because of the Sherlock reference rather than the pinup.
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23-05-2014, 05:57 AM
RE: Pride aside...Jennifer Fulwiler
(22-05-2014 05:14 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  [Image: 482d3e194e1b8f307feed57dcb1b02b6.jpg]

Don't forget tornadoes. Tongue

[Image: TheheavensdeclarethegloryofGod_zps0c86d697.jpg]
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23-05-2014, 06:13 AM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2014 06:26 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: Pride aside...Jennifer Fulwiler
(22-05-2014 05:10 PM)John Wrote:  Transcript:

#1: Looks at baby, can't believe love is just chemicals in her brain.
#2: Tediously long rambling of post hoc rationalizations
#3: Praise the Lord!

I'd go further by saying that she never really set about making her own choice about religion until that point. Her father read Carl Sagan to her at night when growing up. Eventually there comes a time when people need to decide for themselves who they want to be and how they want to live their lives.

She had an emotional need that was not being met. This was brought home to her when she had her first child. She then went on a mission to find a means to satisfy her emotional needs with post rationalisations so she could be sincere in her belief. This is what every born again Christian does. Nothing new here.

As with anybody, generally if someone needs to believe in something then there is a greater chance that they will believe in it. Doesn't make it true but whatever floats their boat.
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23-05-2014, 07:00 AM
RE: Pride aside...Jennifer Fulwiler
(23-05-2014 06:13 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  I'd go further by saying that she never really set about making her own choice about religion until that point.

She had an emotional need that was not being met.

I very much agree on the first point, she gave the impression of not having worked out her world view until she had her child, just sticked to whatever she had been fed with. Can't claim to have experience, but I'd guess you're not in the most reasonable state of mind right after labour to make judgements about metaphysics. Then, once the domino pieces start falling, there's no looking back.

The emotional need seems plausible too, but she didn't really tell enough about her way of thinking or her additudes towards the classic "what's the meaning of life" and "where does morality come from" questions before she had her child -- and even if she had, I've never been much of a shrink in any case.

A curious detail I found was the fact that the very last thing she purportedly laid her hands on was Christianity, seemingly after having exhausted all the other options on the table, which is exactly what KC told about his own journey.

Τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια?
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23-05-2014, 07:19 AM
RE: Pride aside...Jennifer Fulwiler
(23-05-2014 07:00 AM)John Wrote:  A curious detail I found was the fact that the very last thing she purportedly laid her hands on was Christianity, seemingly after having exhausted all the other options on the table, which is exactly what KC told about his own journey.

Or is it a case that your car keys are always in the last place you look because once you've found them you don't bother looking at the other possibilities?
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23-05-2014, 10:13 AM
RE: Pride aside...Jennifer Fulwiler
(22-05-2014 08:33 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 06:15 PM)Impulse Wrote:  fair
1 [fair] Show IPA
adjective, fair·er, fair·est.
1. free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: a fair decision; a fair judge.
2. legitimately sought, pursued, done, given, etc.; proper under the rules: a fair fight.
3. moderately large; ample: a fair income.
4. neither excellent nor poor; moderately or tolerably good: fair health.
5. marked by favoring conditions; likely; promising: in a fair way to succeed.


The shoe doesn't fit. Drinking Beverage

You are confusing bias with opinion.

It seems fair enough that jeremy wants to have a discussion about a topic without it reducing to ad hominem attacks. You can still expect everyones unfiltered opinion on the subject, however.
You are confusing discussion with trolling and total disregard for intellectual honesty.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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23-05-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: Pride aside...Jennifer Fulwiler
I win ! Oops wrong thread .Tongue
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