Private sector 150,000 times more efficient than the government?
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22-10-2013, 10:08 AM
RE: Private sector 150,000 times more efficient than the government?
And I bet apple didn't tell you the delivery date until AFTER you had paid.

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22-10-2013, 10:38 AM
RE: Private sector 150,000 times more efficient than the government?
(22-10-2013 09:46 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  BTW, I recently applied on the Affordable Care Act portal for the exchanges and was able to start shopping for insurance immediately, with no delays.

Curiously, I then went to the Apple Store and ordered an iPhone 5S online and was told it would be delivered Nov 10.

Is the government now 19x more efficient than Apple Computer?

Wow, government defenders will use ANY excuse to justify their big brother. So Apple comes out with a new phone, builds 10 million of them in the initial product run, but they all sell out in the first weekend.... Therefore, the government is justified in spending $300 million for a web site that the private sector would build for 1/1000th the price!? Apple can build, sell and support an iPhone 5s for $280/user (Apples estimated cost). The government is offering a web site, no physical goods, no LCD, no battery, no CPU, just a web site, and spends $600/user.

Why not just say 'facts don't matter, I will always defend big government no matter what'? That is what you're saying, but by claiming that Apple selling out of iPhones somehow justifies bloated government inefficiency, just makes you look dumb imo.
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22-10-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: Private sector 150,000 times more efficient than the government?
I think Carlos point is that you are not comparing apples to apples.

Also has it ever occurred to you that catering to the private sector is a large part of what makes the scope of this project so complex?

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22-10-2013, 11:03 AM
RE: Private sector 150,000 times more efficient than the government?
(22-10-2013 10:42 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  I think Carlos point is that you are not comparing apples to apples.

Also has it ever occurred to you that catering to the private sector is a large part of what makes the scope of this project so complex?

According to USA Today there are only 8 insurance companies that have agreed to participate in the exchange.

Before healthcare.gov there were lots of 'health insurance comparison' sites that would compare the rates of hundreds of insurance companies and let you sign up for coverage, and would interface with those hundreds of private sector companies API's. And those sites were generally built for only a couple hundred thousand. Obamacare had to interface with only EIGHT (8) insurance companies and took $300 million to do it. And you're justifying that, saying that $300 million is a reasonable price tag to display rates from 8 insurance companies?!

Serious question, what would it take for you to admit that the government had bungled it? What if instead of $300 million the price tag was $300 billion. Would you still be defending it? My guess is that, since the $300 million price tag is already so outrageous and absurd, this means you'd be defending it no matter what the price. Even if it was $3 trillion, you'd still argue it was a bargain.

Additionally, consider how the consumer gets screwed. Previously people in Vermont and Kentucky had HUNDREDS of insurance companies competing for their business. Now, in those states there are only TWO insurance companies offering coverage.
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22-10-2013, 12:09 PM
RE: Private sector 150,000 times more efficient than the government?
(22-10-2013 11:03 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 10:42 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  I think Carlos point is that you are not comparing apples to apples.

Also has it ever occurred to you that catering to the private sector is a large part of what makes the scope of this project so complex?

According to USA Today there are only 8 insurance companies that have agreed to participate in the exchange.

Before healthcare.gov there were lots of 'health insurance comparison' sites that would compare the rates of hundreds of insurance companies and let you sign up for coverage, and would interface with those hundreds of private sector companies API's. And those sites were generally built for only a couple hundred thousand. Obamacare had to interface with only EIGHT (8) insurance companies and took $300 million to do it. And you're justifying that, saying that $300 million is a reasonable price tag to display rates from 8 insurance companies?!

Serious question, what would it take for you to admit that the government had bungled it? What if instead of $300 million the price tag was $300 billion. Would you still be defending it? My guess is that, since the $300 million price tag is already so outrageous and absurd, this means you'd be defending it no matter what the price. Even if it was $3 trillion, you'd still argue it was a bargain.

Additionally, consider how the consumer gets screwed. Previously people in Vermont and Kentucky had HUNDREDS of insurance companies competing for their business. Now, in those states there are only TWO insurance companies offering coverage.

Geez Louise! It''s only been up two weeks and your conclusion is that it's bungled? Sure, it's had its glitches, but these are being ironed out and like I said, it worked fine for me!

If it's still foxtrot uniform after two years despite the best efforts to fix it, yes I will conclude it's bungled and broken beyond repair.

But just give it a chance to work! Like I said, the iPhone is more screwed up that ObamaCare is but it's never declared a failure. Give the Affordable Care Act a chance function, THEN evaluate it.

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22-10-2013, 12:17 PM
RE: Private sector 150,000 times more efficient than the government?
(22-10-2013 12:09 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 11:03 AM)frankksj Wrote:  According to USA Today there are only 8 insurance companies that have agreed to participate in the exchange.

Before healthcare.gov there were lots of 'health insurance comparison' sites that would compare the rates of hundreds of insurance companies and let you sign up for coverage, and would interface with those hundreds of private sector companies API's. And those sites were generally built for only a couple hundred thousand. Obamacare had to interface with only EIGHT (8) insurance companies and took $300 million to do it. And you're justifying that, saying that $300 million is a reasonable price tag to display rates from 8 insurance companies?!

Serious question, what would it take for you to admit that the government had bungled it? What if instead of $300 million the price tag was $300 billion. Would you still be defending it? My guess is that, since the $300 million price tag is already so outrageous and absurd, this means you'd be defending it no matter what the price. Even if it was $3 trillion, you'd still argue it was a bargain.

Additionally, consider how the consumer gets screwed. Previously people in Vermont and Kentucky had HUNDREDS of insurance companies competing for their business. Now, in those states there are only TWO insurance companies offering coverage.

Geez Louise! It''s only been up two weeks and your conclusion is that it's bungled? Sure, it's had its glitches, but these are being ironed out and like I said, it worked fine for me!

If it's still foxtrot uniform after two years despite the best efforts to fix it, yes I will conclude it's bungled and broken beyond repair.

But just give it a chance to work! Like I said, the iPhone is more screwed up that ObamaCare is but it's never declared a failure. Give the Affordable Care Act a chance function, THEN evaluate it.

When have little things like facts ever bothered opponents of Obama-care?

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22-10-2013, 12:40 PM
RE: Private sector 150,000 times more efficient than the government?
(22-10-2013 09:33 AM)Dom Wrote:  Interested in Girly's opinion here. But I can't imagine any ground breaking components here.

There aren't. It should've been a clean rollout given that I've been using FEHB over at OPM.gov for over a decade now to get my insurance electronically. Dunno why they didn't use the same contractors and model it the same way as the FEHB site. I mean it's essentially the same goddam thing and that system works fine. Seems like a fine starting point. They got like 4-6 weeks to work the shit out before it starts to collapse under its own weight. That's normally doable but Gumbymint ain't used to moving that quickly. I'm banking on it succeeding 'cause I got a kid about to turn 27 in a year or so with preexisting conditions and he's gonna need health care. Obamacare's already helped him by moving the age a parent can cover a child from 22 to 26 so I'm grateful for that.

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22-10-2013, 01:50 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2013 01:54 PM by frankksj.)
RE: Private sector 150,000 times more efficient than the government?
(22-10-2013 12:09 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Geez Louise! It''s only been up two weeks and your conclusion is that it's bungled? Sure, it's had its glitches, but these are being ironed out and like I said, it worked fine for me!

If it's still foxtrot uniform after two years despite the best efforts to fix it, yes I will conclude it's bungled and broken beyond repair.

But just give it a chance to work! Like I said, the iPhone is more screwed up that ObamaCare is but it's never declared a failure. Give the Affordable Care Act a chance function, THEN evaluate it.

Jeez, you set the bar SOOOOO low when it comes to government. Even _IF_ there were NO glitches, it was STILL bungled because they budgeted $100m, and ended up costing $300m, for what should have cost more like $500,000. Go to any Silicon Valley venture capital firm, and ask them how much money a health exchange startup would need to get launched and service 500k users it's first month (which is tiny peanuts in the internet space). They'll tell you such a startup would be expected to launch the whole business for between $500k and $5m. If, for $5m they didn't get the thing launched smoothly, the founders would be fired and thrown to the street.

So when you say 'give it a chance', how on earth are we, taxpayers, ever going to get that $300m back?! It's gone. It's lost forever. There is no way for the government to make it right.

And regardless, Obamacare is badly bungled because he ran on a promise of a liberal, 'more left' approach to health care. Instead we got crony capitalism, with a massive transfer of wealth from the people to the health insurance companies he was promising to protect us from! We've debated this in another thread and I've challenged anybody to name one other country that forces it's people to buy a product they may not want or use from private, for-profit corporations that are free to set their own prices. Nobody can. Obamacare really is unprecedented crony capitalism.

Obamacare also forces me to (a) give up the doctors I currently use and who I feel give my family the best care, (b) give up the $1 million that I would have been able to pass on to my kids when I'm old because my current health plan is so affordable and the difference is invested © give up access to all the new, cutting edge treatments and medicines that are in other countries, but not the US, and (d) make it harder to live in another country, like Canada, because if I do, I will have to pay for BOTH the Canadian health system AND Obama's health system even though I will never use the latter. So when you say 'give it a chance', there's no way it can undo the damage it's done. I've already received the cancellation notice from my current health insurance company, the only plans they have are 5x higher than what I was paying, and none of them let me pick my own doctors or get non-FDA approved treatments. So, if someone in my family ever gets sick and needs cutting edge treatment outside the US, Obamacare WILL be responsible for their death.

When I first made those 4 claims in the 'fire the government' thread, government defenders insisted I was exaggerating, that it couldn't possibly be THAT bad. But if you follow the thread, ultimately they all backed down and those 4 claims are accurate. It was left off with GirlyMan suggesting that _IF_ I could find an off-shore insurance company to provide the coverage I used to have, _THEN_ I could keep my old doctors if I was willing to pay the Obamacare penalty. But, I've looked, and there are no such off-shore insurance companies, and to do business in the US they are regulated by the US and subject to Obamacare, so Girlyman's workaround is impossible.

That thread shows how faith-based the liberal agenda is. When I first made those 4 claims the response was (paraphrased) that they were outrageous claims, it would be terrible if they were true, but they couldn't possibly be true. So after pages and pages of debates I proved that those claims ARE true, and the liberals just lowered the bar and stood behind Obamacare despite the revelation that their 'faith' was based on assumptions that were false.
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22-10-2013, 01:56 PM
RE: Private sector 150,000 times more efficient than the government?
Quote:When have little things like facts ever bothered opponents of Obama-care?

@Revenant77x, it's the other way around. Read my prior post. Those are facts. Do you dispute them? If so, be specific and state what you dispute and provide some source. Otherwise, it's clear that the anti-Obamacare guys ARE using facts, and you guys just have your heads buried in the sand defending the government no matter what it does.
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22-10-2013, 01:58 PM
RE: Private sector 150,000 times more efficient than the government?
Ok, are we going to turn the discussion of web design into a replica of the Obama thread now?

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