Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
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26-03-2015, 07:38 PM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2015 07:41 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(26-03-2015 07:15 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(26-03-2015 07:05 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Remind me again why protesters in Syria, Bahrain, or Saudi Arabia being shot in the street as they marched makes them somehow deserve their fate?

I think I lost track of your justification somewhere along the line. Sorry!

Because in Syria it devolved into a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia that has nothing to do with the initial revolution.

Yes. Because an oppressive dictator was violent enough to suppress all but the most violent resistance.

Funny how that works.

(26-03-2015 07:15 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  In Bahrain the crack down and protests also became part of that proxy war and have less to do with creating a free society than with replacing a suni theocracy with a shia theocracy.
In Saudi Arabia only few peoples went out to protest and those were mainly shia.

Remind me again why they deserve that, then?

(26-03-2015 07:15 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  I am not saying they deserve their fate. I am saying they are not what people think them to be.

Now my turn. Remind me of what happend with democracy in Egypt and Yemen after 2011?

Elections in Egypt were held very quickly under very chaotic circumstances. Shockingly, in a choice between A), the same crowd of jokers who were just kicked out of office, B), the only opposition organisation with anything even remotely resembling a political ground game due to aforesaid decades of repression, and C), random nobodies, B won the election.
(and the endgame there is the same crowd of military petty-fascists overthrowing that government and once again abandoning pretense of democracy. So... good outcome, or bad one, in your books?)

Incidentally, plenty of shitheads have won elections everywhere else on Earth.

Yemen never held elections, so there's that.
(okay, okay, I exaggerate - there was an election with one fucking candidate - so I guess they "deserve" what's happened since, right? Since he won with 99% of the totally legitimate and democratic vote?)

Although perhaps you think that if people don't immediately start to adopt "proper" beliefs and values the split-second they have a kind-of pretending to be free election after years upon years of single-party iron-fisted rule, it's then that they get what they "deserve" in the fallout?

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26-03-2015, 07:48 PM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(26-03-2015 07:22 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(26-03-2015 07:15 PM)666wannabe Wrote:  I have to admit that part of me wants to cheer, but the other, more contemplative part of me, sees the action as only blind vengeance. The targets were non-combatants--writers who have a right to express their opinions. I remember the reaction to the murders at Charlie Hebdo (also non-combatant writers). The perpetrators were satirized as screaming, "Look out, he might have a pen!"

The primary MO of ISIS (and Boko Haram, also) is to indiscriminately kill innocent non-combatants. It is hypocritical for us to support using the same tactics.

I have watched a few of the videos of the U.S. supportive air strikes against ISIS and I feel legitimately justified in cheering at the enemy combatants' quick demise.

Drinking Beverage

I would never support the an attack on freedom of speech in a country that actualy has freedom of speech.

There is no freedom of speech in the middle east.

Usualy down there, the guy with the bigger gun wins the argument.

From the preamble of the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

"Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,..."

As individuals, if we are not part of the solution, we are part of the problem. Freedom of Speech is a Universal Right, regardless if it is recognized by a government or not.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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26-03-2015, 08:01 PM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(26-03-2015 07:20 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(26-03-2015 07:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yabut, you deserve Stephen Harper. Yes

What a horrible thing to say. Nobody deserves that!

Big Grin

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26-03-2015, 10:19 PM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
Hah. Freedom of speech as long as you say the right thing.

It's like no one understands the idea any more. It's not just a slogan you know. Somehow nowadays it's just a meaningless string of syllables. When it's you and yours who are attacked it's #JeSuisCharlie and when it's someone else it's #TheBastardsDeservedIt.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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27-03-2015, 06:40 AM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(26-03-2015 10:19 PM)morondog Wrote:  Hah. Freedom of speech as long as you say the right thing.

It's like no one understands the idea any more. It's not just a slogan you know. Somehow nowadays it's just a meaningless string of syllables. When it's you and yours who are attacked it's #JeSuisCharlie and when it's someone else it's #TheBastardsDeservedIt.

Oh, come now. This is not symmetric.
While it is wrong to bomb someone's business or home because you dislike what they say, what they are saying and its effects will affect people's reactions.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-03-2015, 07:22 AM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
I agree it affects people's emotions, certainly. It should not affect peoples reactions. You can't claim unity with Charlie Hebdo, cheer about this, and claim you believe in freedom of speech.

Personally, I have to confess to smiling a little at this story. It's an emotional response and part of me enjoys the justice of it. But, I wholeheartedly condemn it and hope all the people chanting Je Suis Charlie show they really believe what they claim they believe and condemn this act of terror with the same fervor.

We claim to be a more enlightened society than these Muslim fanatics. What makes us so, allegedly, is our respect for all peoples and how everyone should be equal under the law. I realize that this happened in Turkey who, while aspiring to notions of liberalized democracy are not quite there yet, but free people everywhere should condemn this act for what it is - the cowardly suppression of ideas. Even bad ideas have a right to be heard.

Your never going to win an ideological war with guns. And, the war against ISIS is an ideological war. As long as people see attracted to their ideology, they can continue. Our way is one of equality and freedom. Acting like hypocrites only serves the interests of these fanatics. One thing you can't accuse groups like ISIS of is inconsistency.

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27-03-2015, 07:23 AM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(27-03-2015 06:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-03-2015 10:19 PM)morondog Wrote:  Hah. Freedom of speech as long as you say the right thing.

It's like no one understands the idea any more. It's not just a slogan you know. Somehow nowadays it's just a meaningless string of syllables. When it's you and yours who are attacked it's #JeSuisCharlie and when it's someone else it's #TheBastardsDeservedIt.

Oh, come now. This is not symmetric.
While it is wrong to bomb someone's business or home because you dislike what they say, what they are saying and its effects will affect people's reactions.

There were a lot of people who loathed what Charlie Hebdo had to say, considered it to fuel racist tensions etc. Still, cheering for the cartoonists deaths is agreed by all to be in poor taste. Same with these guys. As you say, some people are pretty vile but... part of what makes me detest them is their readiness to call for or applaud this kind of killing.

I'm sure the world itself is not particularly worse off for their deaths, but I can't see that it's better either.

And realistically speaking if I take of my rose-coloured enlightenment glasses for a sec, I can see that it makes the propaganda war that much easier to fight if you simply cut off the propaganda at the source.

BUT... in terms of ideals... in terms of freedom of speech... in terms of what is and is not worth fighting for... in those terms it's exactly symmetrical to the Charlie Hebdo killings, from what I can see.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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27-03-2015, 07:25 AM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(27-03-2015 07:23 AM)morondog Wrote:  BUT... in terms of ideals... in terms of freedom of speech... in terms of what is and is not worth fighting for... in those terms it's exactly symmetrical to the Charlie Hebdo killings, from what I can see.

Just liking this isn't enough. Perfectly stated.

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27-03-2015, 07:27 AM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2015 07:30 AM by Chas.)
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(27-03-2015 07:23 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(27-03-2015 06:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  Oh, come now. This is not symmetric.
While it is wrong to bomb someone's business or home because you dislike what they say, what they are saying and its effects will affect people's reactions.

There were a lot of people who loathed what Charlie Hebdo had to say, considered it to fuel racist tensions etc. Still, cheering for the cartoonists deaths is agreed by all to be in poor taste. Same with these guys. As you say, some people are pretty vile but... part of what makes me detest them is their readiness to call for or applaud this kind of killing.

I'm sure the world itself is not particularly worse off for their deaths, but I can't see that it's better either.

And realistically speaking if I take of my rose-coloured enlightenment glasses for a sec, I can see that it makes the propaganda war that much easier to fight if you simply cut off the propaganda at the source.

BUT... in terms of ideals... in terms of freedom of speech... in terms of what is and is not worth fighting for... in those terms it's exactly symmetrical to the Charlie Hebdo killings, from what I can see.

Nope, not symmetric - ideas vs. violence.

Publishing cartoons or essays that satire ideas is not in the same league as publishing calls to violence.
Freedom of speech is not absolute. Not anywhere, not anywhen.

Societies have struggled, and will continue to struggle, about where to draw lines and set limits on freedoms. That is what societies do.

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27-03-2015, 07:38 AM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
And western society's have decided that the line is at sedition or planning a crime.

Cheering on violence does not cross the line. Nor does racism, misogyny, or general intolerance. The whole point of freedom of speech is to protect ideas the majority doesn't agree with.

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