Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
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27-03-2015, 07:47 AM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(27-03-2015 07:38 AM)BnW Wrote:  And western society's have decided that the line is at sedition or planning a crime.

Cheering on violence does not cross the line. Nor does racism, misogyny, or general intolerance. The whole point of freedom of speech is to protect ideas the majority doesn't agree with.

The line is crossed by inciting violence, too.

You seem to think I applaud the bombing of the pro-Isis magazine office. I don't - it was an illegal act and a legal way to shut them down should have been found.

My emotional reaction is applause.

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27-03-2015, 08:41 AM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
More pro-ISIS places/people should be blown the fuck up.
Fuck ISIS, fuck those that share its "values" and fuck those that recruit for it and seek to see its ideals come to pass.

Those people have no place in on this Earth they can all fuck off and rot in hell. Every single one of them.

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27-03-2015, 09:25 AM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(27-03-2015 07:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-03-2015 07:38 AM)BnW Wrote:  And western society's have decided that the line is at sedition or planning a crime.

Cheering on violence does not cross the line. Nor does racism, misogyny, or general intolerance. The whole point of freedom of speech is to protect ideas the majority doesn't agree with.

The line is crossed by inciting violence, too.

You seem to think I applaud the bombing of the pro-Isis magazine office. I don't - it was an illegal act and a legal way to shut them down should have been found.

My emotional reaction is applause.

First, I never said or in anyway implied you were celebrating the bombing. My comments were to you, not about you. As for your emotional reaction, we are all human. I felt some satisfaction at the news too. Hard not to. Our immediate human responses is not the point.

Second, writing a magazine that celebrates violence is not nearly the same as inciting violence. I agree inciting violence can cross s legal line. So can ordering a murder. But, that's just a red herring. Publishing a story is not inciting violence by any legal definition. Anymore than posting on an atheist website is.

Again, protections for free speech exist for the speech you don't agree with, not the speech you do.

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27-03-2015, 03:18 PM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(27-03-2015 09:25 AM)BnW Wrote:  Second, writing a magazine that celebrates violence is not nearly the same as inciting violence.

The difference is paper thin...

AFAIK in America even inciting violence is not illegal? Or am I incorrect? I know here in South Africa we do have significantly more restrictions on total freedom of speech, IMO, justifiable ones.

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27-03-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(27-03-2015 03:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(27-03-2015 09:25 AM)BnW Wrote:  Second, writing a magazine that celebrates violence is not nearly the same as inciting violence.

The difference is paper thin...

AFAIK in America even inciting violence is not illegal? Or am I incorrect? I know here in South Africa we do have significantly more restrictions on total freedom of speech, IMO, justifiable ones.

There are two or three restrictions on free speech, and incitement to violence is one of them. If you are speaking in a way to directly cause violence then yes, that is illegal. But it is a hard case to make.
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27-03-2015, 06:31 PM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
Lets not give the west a pass. No not like Isis or that fuckwad is claiming, but religion itself, all three of them combine to create this bullshit.

Islam still far to stuck in dark age thinking, the biggest problem between the three. But between the two supposed "adult" Christianity and Jewish religions, our Christian right has a very vile doomsday story they sell in which Jews get a consolation prize in the form of a nation, but not all Jews will get past the velvet ropes. Israel lies to themselves saying "Jew is a race" like "Chinese" and I see that as a bullshit excuse.

The real issue is RELIGION as a human construct itself. If none of those religions had ever been invented by humans none of this would be happening.

Not to say other religions wouldn't have come about, just to say that this tribalism is a result of our species gap filling, false perceptions which leads to these competing groups.

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28-03-2015, 03:36 PM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
Free speech should not be negotiable, nor should it be limited to certain points of view. The guy is disgusting, but I still cannot celebrate an attempt to shut down free speech.

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28-03-2015, 03:55 PM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(27-03-2015 05:50 PM)natachan Wrote:  
(27-03-2015 03:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  The difference is paper thin...

AFAIK in America even inciting violence is not illegal? Or am I incorrect? I know here in South Africa we do have significantly more restrictions on total freedom of speech, IMO, justifiable ones.

There are two or three restrictions on free speech, and incitement to violence is one of them. If you are speaking in a way to directly cause violence then yes, that is illegal. But it is a hard case to make.

Indeed; "inciting violence" is always going to be impossible to define, since it's a totally subjective matter.

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30-03-2015, 09:20 PM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
Actually, you legally can define "inciting violence ". In the US, the legal standard requires imminent violence, not future violence. So, you work up a crowd into a frenzy and tell them some group is responsible for .. whatever. .. point out a member if that group and tell the crowd to take all their anger out on that person, and they do; at that point you may need legal representation.

There is no way a magazine or even a blog is ever going to rise to the level of "imminent".

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31-03-2015, 08:01 AM
RE: Pro ISIS magazine bombed in Turkey
(30-03-2015 09:20 PM)BnW Wrote:  Actually, you legally can define "inciting violence ". In the US, the legal standard requires imminent violence, not future violence. So, you work up a crowd into a frenzy and tell them some group is responsible for .. whatever. .. point out a member if that group and tell the crowd to take all their anger out on that person, and they do; at that point you may need legal representation.

There is no way a magazine or even a blog is ever going to rise to the level of "imminent".

No shit. You can legally define anything. That certainly doesn't make that definition perfect or inarguable, and it doesn't even mean it's coherent. All such definitions are compromises that will have problems when applied in edge cases; that's how all laws work. A functioning legal system requires perforce a definition, but where it should fall is a matter on which it is impossible to please everyone. See also: the fact that every country and jurisdiction on Earth has different standards even when such terms are defined - there exists under Canadian law a definition of "hate speech" that is more restrictive than what exists under American law, for a trivial example.
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