Poll: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
Pro Israel
Pro Palestine
[Show Results]
 
Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-11-2016, 10:20 PM
RE: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
(22-11-2016 10:07 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 09:55 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Well, Israel wants a two-state solution so everyone can have land and they can live in peace, and the Palestinians want to kill the Jews and take all the land for themselves.

So.... Yeah.

They say they want a two state solution, while they keep on settling in Palestinian lands.

That land was lost to Israel fair and square when the Arabs declared war and attacked Israel. The Arabs were acting on a long-standing intent to destroy Israel and kick out the Jews, rather than share the land.

I would think that under normal circumstances, if someone attacks you and you win, you get to keep their land. I think that's just how war works, but never-the-less, the Israelis made a deal with the Arabs that if they'd like to amend their constitution that says that their goal is to remove Israel and take all the land for themselves, then they can have the land back that they lost in the war. We are still patiently waiting for the Arabs to agree to the terms so we can give them the land back.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
22-11-2016, 11:28 PM
RE: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
(22-11-2016 10:20 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 10:07 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  They say they want a two state solution, while they keep on settling in Palestinian lands.

That land was lost to Israel fair and square when the Arabs declared war and attacked Israel. The Arabs were acting on a long-standing intent to destroy Israel and kick out the Jews, rather than share the land.

I would think that under normal circumstances, if someone attacks you and you win, you get to keep their land. I think that's just how war works, but never-the-less, the Israelis made a deal with the Arabs that if they'd like to amend their constitution that says that their goal is to remove Israel and take all the land for themselves, then they can have the land back that they lost in the war. We are still patiently waiting for the Arabs to agree to the terms so we can give them the land back.

The Lakota where I live still have not given up their claim to the black hills. Which is sacred to them, Paha Sapa they call it. The United States took that from them by force over a hundred years ago. I hope you're comfortable, because you're going to be waiting for a long long time if you just see things from your own perspectives, as will the Palestinians.

I will also say that the circumstances regarding Israel are anything but normal.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2016, 11:35 PM
RE: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
(22-11-2016 10:20 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 10:07 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  They say they want a two state solution, while they keep on settling in Palestinian lands.

That land was lost to Israel fair and square when the Arabs declared war and attacked Israel. The Arabs were acting on a long-standing intent to destroy Israel and kick out the Jews, rather than share the land.

I would think that under normal circumstances, if someone attacks you and you win, you get to keep their land. I think that's just how war works, but never-the-less, the Israelis made a deal with the Arabs that if they'd like to amend their constitution that says that their goal is to remove Israel and take all the land for themselves, then they can have the land back that they lost in the war. We are still patiently waiting for the Arabs to agree to the terms so we can give them the land back.

Close but no cigar.

https://www.afsc.org/resource/israel%E2%...-territory

On "World of Tanks", one of the two games I regularly play, my favorite tank is the Centurion 7/1, a British tank that was sold to the Israeli Defense Force and which bore the brunt of the overwhelming Syrian attack against the Golan Heights. The tankers there fought like lions, and in their honor, I customized my game-tank to run an Israeli flag on the side of the turret, and use a camo pattern similar to that of the IDF's. I am in no way an enemy of Israel.

I'm with Yak's analysis of this. Ideally, I'd love to see the overwhelming success of secular Israel, including stopping the declared intent of their neighbors to wipe them out... something that has been tried three times. Regardless of how one feels about whether or not it was right to create the Israeli state in the 1940s (and I think it was right), it happened. They are legitimate, they are recognized internationally, and that's all there is to it: fait accompli. A truly secular Israel, ally of the US and a bastion of free thought and technological development in that region, is (or would be) a wonderful thing.

Sadly, what I've been seeing instead, in reaction to those wars and other attacks against Israel, is the development of an illegal policy of expansion against the Arabs, vocal denigration of the basic humanity of the Arabs in the region, human rights violations and violation of international law on many levels, and an increasingly less-secular popular opinion leading to an increasingly religiously-militant set of leaders. This is hardly surprising, since as I've posted elsewhere, external and/or existential threats tend to push any people toward the right and toward hardline militancy.

As a result, we see too many of the youth of Israel acting pretty much exactly like the Arab behaviors they claim to decry:





Does Israel have a right to defend itself? Absolutely. But not by whatever means they deem "necessary". Their sheer defiance of international law and pursuit of selfish policies has squandered whatever good will other nations may have shown them, in supporting them against their neighbors. Their continuing blockade of Gaza in defiance of repeated demands that it be relaxed or ended, for instance, not only guarantees another generation of half-starved and wholly-pissed-off Gaza youth to continue the war into the next several decades, but it ignores any potential for Israel to spread the notion of secularism into that region or to honestly have a chance at a "two-state solution".

It's a mess. It's a complex situation with no easy answer. I do know that none of those answers involve running over protesters with bulldozers, however. (My favorite part of that article is how the Israeli Defense Force investigators, and the Israeli courts, found that it was an "accident" because the driver had poor visibility from the cab of the bulldozer... despite the fact that the protesters were there for eight hours and the dozers were trying to force them to move by intimidating them physically.)

As a result, I cannot support either Israel or anyone else involved in those conflicts. I do, however, support the people and wish to see the suffering stop at all ends. That means that both sides need to put down their holy books and start reasoning again.

Approximate odds of that happening? 0.000003%

Approximate odds of me, as things currently stand, being guilted into supporting either side by activists? 0.000003%

Back in 2004, I lost a good friend who was Jewish because I had a "smoking room" in my house, and he brought me a small Israeli flag, which I agreed to hang on the wall in there. One of my hyper-liberal friends objected, and when I refused to take it down, they got really mad at me. Another of our liberal buddies intervened and said it needed a Palestinian flag to offset it. So I got one of similar size and hung them both up, with the "sticks" crossing. I thought it was nice. Sadly, David took deep offense to it. *sigh*

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 9 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
22-11-2016, 11:42 PM
RE: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
Oh, and before the "but rockets are being fired from Gaza" replies start (I had that same argument in 2004, too), I'd like to say that I know all too well that if Mexico was lobbing rockets and mortars over the border into Brownsville, El Paso, and San Diego, the United States would probably get militant as fuck and try to gobble them up in an overwhelming military response.

In that case, I would oppose that response, too, and probably hang a Mexican flag next to a US flag, on my wall.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
22-11-2016, 11:44 PM
RE: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
(22-11-2016 09:13 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Advantageous to whomm? Idk who our is or what the long term goals of that are either.
Advantageous in regards to having a defensible region that is relatively sympathetic to your agenda and willing to work with you, and isn't Saudi Arabia.

Quote:Also I am not sure it's defined a secular but conflict driven and hated region opposed to a potential period of more internal radical vs contemporary main religious strides.

That's like does a really secular college town have a benefit or contrast in the reaction of a deeply religious large community.

People make it personal because it's easier than looking at the bigger picture with a sense of detachment. I don't care about their history or the religion backed reasons some of them claim as justification for their actions. If the end goal is to have a place where you can be a gay atheist without getting imprisoned and tortured for it, Israel is a much more workable option than Palestine since it already has laws in place and a culture that is generally more supportive of such things.

'Murican Canadian
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes yakherder's post
22-11-2016, 11:49 PM
RE: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
Welp there goes the one thing I had in my pocket that I thought might prove to you that politics is what makes religion bad Rocket. Thanks. THANKS. For just dashing my hopes after a ten page long excursion.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2016, 01:45 AM
RE: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
(22-11-2016 08:43 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 08:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  pro human

Ah No fence sitters! I didn't put a middle ground on this for a reason, I wanted to see what people would vote if they had to choose between one or the other.

...which is inherently dishonest. If you know in advance what kinda answers you will accept or not, why have anyone vote at all? Like someone else already mentioned, you give (sometimes) the impression of a (petulant) child.

Therefore i wont vote, but i will tell ya my "fencesitter" opinion:
Both are barking mad, and both are backed up by major players pulling the strings behind. Thats why it wont end in the near future.
They both dont understand that they have to come up with some kind of agreement on how to live together on this tiny spec of the world. Its because it would need another (major / world) war to have any of both population groups either completely wiped out or exiled from palestine, like so many jews who were exiled into palestine after WWII:

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Deesse23's post
23-11-2016, 02:01 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2016 02:10 AM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
(23-11-2016 01:45 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 08:43 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Ah No fence sitters! I didn't put a middle ground on this for a reason, I wanted to see what people would vote if they had to choose between one or the other.

...which is inherently dishonest. If you know in advance what kinda answers you will accept or not, why have anyone vote at all? Like someone else already mentioned, you give (sometimes) the impression of a (petulant) child.

Therefore i wont vote, but i will tell ya my "fencesitter" opinion:
Both are barking mad, and both are backed up by major players pulling the strings behind. Thats why it wont end in the near future.
They both dont understand that they have to come up with some kind of agreement on how to live together on this tiny spec of the world. Its because it would need another (major / world) war to have any of both population groups either completely wiped out or exiled from palestine, like so many jews who were exiled into palestine after WWII:

To be honest Deesse the entire thread was created in the hopes that I'd be able to use the revelation of the political climate there to try and get atheists who believe religion is the problem in the world to reconsider their opinion that it is politics that is the greatest and biggest problem.

Mostly I wanted to try and convince Rocket of this as he and I have been engaged in a long discussion about the matter.

It did not work, It didn't work. Rocket was already well informed about these events, which is a testament to his critical thinking. Now I'm stuck, and with a formidable adversary to boot. How to get him to switch views of the cause of the world's problems...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2016, 03:07 AM
RE: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
Because it's not an either/or, it's a both/and.

When you already have a credulous population because of their religious culture, you can use that to manipulate them at the political level. Our GOP are masters of doing it to the "Religious Right". It isn't a recent phenomenon... the stakes are just higher in the age of nuclear weapons, climate change, and resource scarcity due to an exploding population.

Before, all you could do was convince people that "God says" that "Our People" really need to wipe out those "Evil People" over there on that land that "God promised to Us." Now, we stand a good chance of wiping out our entire species. What worked so well before, in the age of tribal and city-state warfare, may be our undoing as the Age of Empires turns into the nuclear age.

Lacking much power to stop the political elites throughout the world, I do my best to erode the religious underpinnings of their power by encouraging skeptical thought and better methods of evaluating new (and old) information. Teach people to think scientifically, and the giants of industry (and their purchased political leaders) will not be able to get away with as much.

As Voltaire put it:

"Once your faith, sir, persuades you to believe what your intelligence declares to be absurd, beware lest you likewise sacrifice your reason in the conduct of your life. In days gone by, there were people who said to us: "You believe in incomprehensible, contradictory and impossible things because we have commanded you to; now then, commit unjust acts because we likewise order you to do so." Nothing could be more convincing. Certainly any one who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices. If you do not use the intelligence with which God endowed your mind to resist believing impossibilities, you will not be able to use the sense of injustice which God planted in your heart to resist a command to do evil. Once a single faculty of your soul has been tyrannized, all the other faculties will submit to the same fate. This has been the cause of all the religious crimes that have flooded the earth."

(This is often paraphrased as, "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities", which he didn't actually say.)

(Bold emphasis my own.)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
23-11-2016, 05:27 AM
RE: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
I'm "Pro-Kalamazoo"...

Palestine and Israel are in the middle east...

I live in the mid-west -- so it's none of my business...


Tongue

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: