Pro-Life Atheists?
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23-12-2010, 05:39 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(23-12-2010 05:18 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  theres a problem with the whole "just adopt" thing that the pro-lifers come out with frequently, there are a lot of people who adopt who are either incompetent or abusive. Does this mean adoption shouldn't be an option? no, it just means its not a definite answer to abortion.

Does anyone know any statistics about abuse / maltreatment of adopted children vs children living with their biological parents? I would ( without any evidence ) assume that adoptive parents would be better prepared to provide a loving nurturing environment since they are actively trying to become parents as opposed to biological parents who sometimes become so due to a "accident".

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23-12-2010, 07:41 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
I know in the US a least that generally speaking adoptive kids usually end up in good homes with good families. There are obviously problems at times, and I'm sure some people who should never have kids will end up with them, but the norm is that those kids end up with families who really, really want them.

Foster parents is a completely different matter and a lot of of foster kids are abused.

As for the argument that an adoptive parent can be abusive, while it's certainly possible I think it's pure nonsense. There are thousands of kids in abusive homes and the incident of abuse in adoptive homes is most likely far below the average. I can't prove that outside the US but when you look at the demographics of who adopts, it makes sense the incidence of abuse would be lower. You're generally dealing with people who are a little bit older, have some money and stability, and are spending a lot of time, money and effort to have this child. Those are not usually the people who become abusive.

In the US, though, there has been some issues with foreign adoptions, especially out of Russia and eastern Europe. Some of those kids have serious issues including suffering from Fetal Alcohol syndrome, some are HIV positive and on one realizes, and many have severe emotional problems. Parents get all caught up in bringing this kid from some dingy orphanage in the old Soviet Bloc, think they are doing this wonderful thing, and are completely and totally unprepared for the problems these kids have. My wife and I know some people have been caught with some of this and fortunately for them their kids are basically good kids and they are wonderful people with a lot of love, patience and financial means to do what needs to be done. But, if they did not have a huge income to fall back on, I don't know they could afford to deal with some of the issues they have.

Still, I consider adoption a much better option then abortion.

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23-12-2010, 08:28 PM
 
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(22-12-2010 10:20 PM)mBear Wrote:  As to the issue of a fetus' ability to feel pain, there aren't any conclusive results as far as I know. However most of the literature I've read points me to believe that a fetus is unable to feel pain until it is born. I actually remember reading also that a baby can't feel pain until a few days after birth. I read all of this while doing research for a paper a while back so it is possible that some of it was outdated.

As a woman who has carried two babies, I cannot even fathom that this is true. Babies are very responsive to stimuli even in the womb, and they certainly cry in pain when you stick them with a needle in the hospital. I think we tell ourselves things like this to lessen the horror of what's really going on.

I agree that we don't know when exactly a fetus feels pain, but I think that someday we will know. It's certainly a relevant consideration.
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25-12-2010, 02:58 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
Norseman:

I don't have real numbers, but I know that due to America's rigorous adoption process, adoptive parents are a lot less likely to be abusive. Foster parents are another story, but adoptive parents tend to be some of the best. And I agree with some of your later posts, saying that a home already waiting for the baby if something to take into consideration, I think you also need to keep in mind the mother's situation too. Aside from medical issues, there are times when carrying a child to term are near impossible. Many people now a days can't afford health insurance, let alone doctor visits. And if your job is physically demanding, then something has to give for a nine month pregnant woman.

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28-12-2010, 09:47 AM
 
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(23-12-2010 08:28 PM)athnostic Wrote:  
(22-12-2010 10:20 PM)mBear Wrote:  As to the issue of a fetus' ability to feel pain, there aren't any conclusive results as far as I know. However most of the literature I've read points me to believe that a fetus is unable to feel pain until it is born. I actually remember reading also that a baby can't feel pain until a few days after birth. I read all of this while doing research for a paper a while back so it is possible that some of it was outdated.

As a woman who has carried two babies, I cannot even fathom that this is true. Babies are very responsive to stimuli even in the womb, and they certainly cry in pain when you stick them with a needle in the hospital. I think we tell ourselves things like this to lessen the horror of what's really going on.

I agree that we don't know when exactly a fetus feels pain, but I think that someday we will know. It's certainly a relevant consideration.

It is most likely that the ability to feel pain develops at around week 20, where the organs develop, including the brain. Since the feeling of pain requires motor neurones and other components in the central nervous system, than without the development of the brain, the fetus can not feel pain.

This is another reason why I feel that Life (rather than the ability to be alive) begins around 20 week or so, when a fetus could be viable.
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28-12-2010, 04:39 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(28-12-2010 09:47 AM)violentpixi Wrote:  This is another reason why I feel that Life (rather than the ability to be alive) begins around 20 week or so, when a fetus could be viable.

But what if a fetus can be viable at conception? We grow babies in test tubes. We've cloned animals. We can almost eliminate human beings from the process altogether and join a sperm and an egg in a petri dish and grow a full human being. We're not quite there yet, but given how fast we are moving it won't be long. So, when we can keep a fetus viable at 10 weeks, does your definition move to 10 weeks? And if we get it down to 5 weeks, does your definition move to 5 weeks?

The viability argument is intellectually dishonest because it focuses not on the morality of the issue but the current state of science at a given moment in time. When Roe V. Wade, the baseline for all abortion laws in the US, was decided, the science to keep a baby alive outside the womb prior to the 3rd trimester did not really exist. Now it does. If the basis of your argument is fetus viability, then you've really no argument at all because modern medicine keeps moving that line closer and closer to conception.

Finally, I'm with agnothstic on when a fetus can feel pain. I've 2 kids and we used to "tease" them when my wife was pregnant by inducing them to kick, and to move, etc. I used to sing to her stomach when she was in her first trimester and she could feel changes in the baby's position (mostly to get away because I'm a horrible singer!).

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30-12-2010, 03:48 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
This is just something that I want to throw out. Abortion is one of the most polarized issues. People like to think there is a sharp line between pro-choice and pro-life, but in reality, it's not black and white. The only people that I've meet that are 100% for abortion or 100% against are people that just want to stick it to the other side. Most abortion debates tends to dissolve into name calling and trolling. I just think we deserve a pat on the back for staying rational.

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31-12-2010, 09:34 PM
 
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
I agree, ashley! This is the most intellectually honest, reasonable, and informative discussion I've ever had on this issue. I think I've even realized my views are a lot more moderate than I would have characterized them before simply as a result of reading and talking about it with all of you.

Thank you!
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01-01-2011, 03:40 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
Well I am an atheist Buddhist. Which means I am pro-life, but I will not force my ideals. I believe it is a woman's choice to have an abortion.

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“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” ~ Gautama Buddha
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05-01-2011, 12:09 PM
 
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
I think there should certainly be a limit. If someone can't decide what they want to do in the first trimester, it's just too late. The issue I've seen from some of the conservatives is that they refer to the other side often times as pro-abortion. Nothing could be further from the truth, just because someone is pro-choice is does not make them pro-abortion.
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