Pro-Life Atheists?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-12-2010, 09:18 AM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(12-12-2010 09:06 AM)freethinker1 Wrote:  sadly there are lots and lots of anti-abortion folks that do want to dictate what a woman can and can't do with her body.
Surely anti abortion folk are making representation for the new human and not the mother? It's the mother who decides to end the life. It's not her body she's killing.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 06:07 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
I'm pro-choice, and I see pro-life as an extremist view to tell you the truth. Individuals should be responsible enough to make their own decisions. Of course Late-term abortions and crap like that is rediculous. I go with you can abort an embryo, but not a fetus. You can be pro-life in your own pregnancies, but forcing others to adopt your view is totalitarian and morally unjustified.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 07:35 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
Not that I disagree necessarily TheKetola... but what about any enforcement of laws.. is that totalitarian and morally unjustified too? Isn't there always a moral imperative even if there is law? You still have the choice to do bad stuff.

1. The deliberate killing of innocent humans is morally wrong.
2. Elective abortion is the deliberate killing of an innocent human.
3. Therefore, elective abortion is morally wrong.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 11:55 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(12-12-2010 06:07 PM)TheKetola Wrote:  forcing others to adopt your view is totalitarian and morally unjustified.

true. but it is also impossible. If what you meant to say was to force people to live by laws that depict your understanding of what is morally wrong, then it is not necessarily true. If your view of what is moral is that of the majority of the population, it is democratic rule. I think that you will find that to be the opposite of totalitarianism.

I want to rip off your superstitions and make passionate sense to you
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-12-2010, 08:11 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
There are five qualities of life Frodo, you want to know how many of those an embryo has? Less than fire, so unless you want to stop the world from putting out fires, stop trying to dictate what women do to a glob of organic material.

Also, it is morally irresponsible for us to go back to being a country where abortion is illegal, because we have already seen what happens! Back-alley abortions result in far more death than our clean and simple abortions. Think about it this way, abortion will happen one way or the other, and while I personally wouldn't choose to get one myself (assuming I was female), I would rather not have people die for wanting to expel a glob of organic material BEFORE it becomes a human.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-12-2010, 08:25 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
Quote:Back-alley abortions result in far more death than our clean and simple abortions.

I'll grant you the "clean".

Simple? I'm not so sure.

I think the biggest problem with this discussion is so many people try to make it an intellectual debate and remove the human aspects of it completely. However, in reality, the human aspect is all that matter. I know women who've had abortions. Some have gone on with their lives without ever thinking twice about it (to the best of my knowledge). Others have regretted their decision and felt like they committed a crime, if not a legal crime then a crime against nature.

I don't in any way identify myself with the pro-life crowd because so many of them are just zealots, but I find the pro-choice position to be intellectually simplistic and dishonest. This is not simply a theoretical discussion. Real lives, both born and unborn, are impacted. To refer to a fetus as a "glob of organic material" is, in my opinion at least, completely dismissive of the overwhelming issues with abortion.

I am a father of two sons. I saw their scans when they were at 12 weeks. I saw the outline of their bodies, I saw them move in the womb, and I can say, with absolute certainty, that at 12 weeks they were far more than a "glob of organic material". The very description is demeaning and insulting.

There are no easy answers to this question and I'm not sure there is any one right position, but I think that making such a dishonest argument as the one set forth by Ketola does nothing to further the discussion. On the contrary, I think it diminishes what is really at stake and obscure the real issues. My humble opinion, at least.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-12-2010, 08:48 PM
 
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(15-12-2010 08:11 PM)TheKetola Wrote:  There are five qualities of life Frodo, you want to know how many of those an embryo has? Less than fire, so unless you want to stop the world from putting out fires, stop trying to dictate what women do to a glob of organic material.

Also, it is morally irresponsible for us to go back to being a country where abortion is illegal, because we have already seen what happens! Back-alley abortions result in far more death than our clean and simple abortions. Think about it this way, abortion will happen one way or the other, and while I personally wouldn't choose to get one myself (assuming I was female), I would rather not have people die for wanting to expel a glob of organic material BEFORE it becomes a human.

I'm anti-abortion in most cases but do not wish to outlaw it completely. I think most abortions can be prevented by preventing unwanted pregnancies.

However ... I agree 100% with BnW. (Well said, BTW.) I have twin daughters who were clearly more than globs of organic materials when I had my first ultrasound at 8 weeks. Clearly reason tells us that abortion is absolutely necessary in some cases. This issue is much more complex than extremists on either side portray it to be.
Quote this message in a reply
15-12-2010, 08:48 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
I've always been pro choice until very recently when this made me think: http://aristophrenium.com/ryft/a-lesson-...arguments/

It's certainly not a question of forcing anyone to do anything Ketola.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-12-2010, 09:33 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
You know what the biggest stipulation I have attached to my choicesness? I do not believe that Fetal abortion should be legal, a fetus is much more than a glob of organic material, however an embryo, while not all the cells are unspecialized, you can use them to do pretty much anything. Stem cells remember? You know where that comes from, if the being can turn into a spinal nerve, then I would not consider it human. In a fetus, you have a more united structure, you have the developement of actual organs, and full systems, it already has a heartbeat, it is living. You know what is the biggest problem with any sort of discussion involving pro-life and pro-choice? Pro-life is usually talking about Fetus's, and the pro-choicer is usually talking about Embryos.

I will admit that I do have a habit of looking at things completely removed from emotion, but I think that emotions are very good at getting in the way of rationale thought. I think that we can all agree, that avoiding unwanted pregnancy would be the best, but it's just not possible.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-12-2010, 12:49 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(15-12-2010 08:48 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  I've always been pro choice until very recently when this made me think: http://aristophrenium.com/ryft/a-lesson-...arguments/

I read this article, but I can't say that it had the same impact on me as it obviously had on you. I think his argument falls on the second premise "Elective abortion is the deliberate killing of an innocent human". Much of the argument in this thread has been about whether this is a factual statement or not. The article writer's stance is that life starts at conception. I don't think to many people outside the hard core religious right pro-life movement would agree to this.

I want to rip off your superstitions and make passionate sense to you
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: