Pro-Life Atheists?
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22-12-2010, 08:20 PM
 
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(22-12-2010 07:56 AM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  After conception, the ZEF has its own DNA, unique from both parents. But does that makes life? I fail to see how it does. It creates potential life, but potential life is not life.

Then there is the heart beat. The ionic image of life since the dawn of man. I can easily see how people blur the symbolism with reality, but I still don't see how a heart beat makes a life. Living tissue, yes, but that distinct idea of a living human being? I don't think so.

Then we get to the next thing that they say a ZEF has; finger/toe nails. Human lives are not kept in toes, sad to say. Where I think the best idea of when to say that the ZEF is a human life is with neurological activity. Being that I firmly believe that a person's identity, the thing that others call a 'soul', is kept in the brain.

I agree, actually. Potential life is not life.

I suppose that's why I find the argument from suffering a compelling one. The point at which a fetus feels pain seems to be a good point in determining whether or not abortion can be performed in good conscience. It seems like we agree a bit here?
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22-12-2010, 10:20 PM
 
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(22-12-2010 08:20 PM)athnostic Wrote:  
(22-12-2010 07:56 AM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  After conception, the ZEF has its own DNA, unique from both parents. But does that makes life? I fail to see how it does. It creates potential life, but potential life is not life.

Then there is the heart beat. The ionic image of life since the dawn of man. I can easily see how people blur the symbolism with reality, but I still don't see how a heart beat makes a life. Living tissue, yes, but that distinct idea of a living human being? I don't think so.

Then we get to the next thing that they say a ZEF has; finger/toe nails. Human lives are not kept in toes, sad to say. Where I think the best idea of when to say that the ZEF is a human life is with neurological activity. Being that I firmly believe that a person's identity, the thing that others call a 'soul', is kept in the brain.

I agree, actually. Potential life is not life.

I suppose that's why I find the argument from suffering a compelling one. The point at which a fetus feels pain seems to be a good point in determining whether or not abortion can be performed in good conscience. It seems like we agree a bit here?

I absolutely agree with ashley.

As to the issue of a fetus' ability to feel pain, there aren't any conclusive results as far as I know. However most of the literature I've read points me to believe that a fetus is unable to feel pain until it is born. I actually remember reading also that a baby can't feel pain until a few days after birth. I read all of this while doing research for a paper a while back so it is possible that some of it was outdated.
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22-12-2010, 10:32 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
I haven't had sex with a girl yet so I haven't had personal experience with this situation, but I am pro choice. I think that if the parents don't want it then they shouldn't have to have it. Also if the parents are too young then it wouldn't be right bringing a baby into this world if it wont be taken are of properly.
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23-12-2010, 01:30 AM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(22-12-2010 10:32 PM)omega21 Wrote:  I haven't had sex with a girl yet so I haven't had personal experience with this situation, but I am pro choice. I think that if the parents don't want it then they shouldn't have to have it.

You might be a virgin, but i promise you, the first time you try to put on a condom you will get it right! It's not a difficult concept.
Part of deciding whether or not to abort a baby is realizing who is responsible for the pregnancy in the first place. When you have done this you can start to think about the fact that you are dealing with a potential life. All it comes down to then is you comparing the value you put on life to the risk the mother-to-be is put in.

(22-12-2010 10:32 PM)omega21 Wrote:  Also if the parents are too young then it wouldn't be right bringing a baby into this world if it wont be taken are of properly.

I have already explained why this is a flawed argument. ( see my previous posts ) The queue to adopt is lining up around the corner.

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23-12-2010, 01:57 AM
 
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(23-12-2010 01:30 AM)ThinkingNorseman Wrote:  I have already explained why this is a flawed argument. ( see my previous posts ) The queue to adopt is lining up around the corner.

I am not familiar with the adoption process, but something seems off to me when there is a long queue of parents waiting to adopt, and at the same time orphanages are full of children who can't find homes.
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23-12-2010, 02:07 AM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
I have heard people say that the adoption process can be a little tedious. But as far as I know children who are put up for adoption early in the pregnancy usually have a family to go to when they are borne.
I don't know how this works where you live, but where I live orphanages are only for children ages 10 and up. The younger ones usually go to a foster family.

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23-12-2010, 08:05 AM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2010 08:11 AM by ashley.hunt60.)
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
I don't know about Norway, but in America the adoption process is better described as long, grueling, and financially draining. $15,000 - $20,000(citation) is what I believe the process usually costs when all is said and done. And we like to legislate what families are worthy of babies too. Often singles(citation) and gays(citation) are banned/discouraged from even trying. And that is how adoption works in America. One of many sectors that need reform.

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23-12-2010, 09:57 AM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
Ashley

It really depends on what state you live in and whom you want to adopt. The biggest problem is that most people want to adopt infants. If you are willing to adopt older kids in the foster care system, it's a lot cheaper. The problem is most people are not. And, even the gay thing depends on the state, and more and more states are opening up to the idea because they realize that they can't move these kids out of the foster care system otherwise.

Before she retired 18 months ago, my mother ran part of the state adoption agency in New Jersey. Per her observations, if NJ did not allow gay adoption the number of foster kids they placed into permanent adoptive homes would probably have dropped by close to half. More and more states are seeing the light on this.

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23-12-2010, 03:54 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
I do agree with the fact that the adoption process needs to be cheaper and all states need to allow for more people to be able to adopt. I personally think any one, middle class or up and have no criminal record, should be able to adopt. Whether they are a straight or gay couple. Singles a well.

As for the condom thing it may be harder then it seems lol. Some of my friends and their I didn't mean to get her pregnant speeches. Funny thing is though one of them was pro life until he knocked someone up, although this is irrelevant I just thought it was somewhat funny but even more sad.
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23-12-2010, 05:18 PM
RE: Pro-Life Atheists?
(18-09-2010 05:00 AM)ThinkingNorseman Wrote:  It is interesting that you should ask, since I myself have just had a change of mind on this question. I went from pro-choice to pro-life. The ironic bit is that my mind was changed in a discussion with my pro-choice girlfriend.

Let me explain myself. My reason for being pro-choice was that i thought that it would be worse for a child to be born to a parent that was unable/unwilling to take care of it, than to not be born at all. Or if it is not necessarily better for the child it is at least better for society. How can somebody be a productive member of society without a proper upbringing?

The argument that turned me started with a discussion on a news article about a woman who wanted to abort a child even though her mother had volunteered to raise the child as her own. In this case i argued that the abortion seemed a little unnecessary since the child was wanted by someone, and the child had as good a guarantee for a proper upbringing as one can get. To this my girlfriend said that that argument could be used for any child, considering how many people are waiting for the opportunity to adopt.

THIS was what turned me. Her argument had worked quite opposite to her intentions, and I found myself suddenly sitting on the other side of the proverbial fence.

I am still pro-choice in the cases where there is a substantial threat to the mothers life, and also in pregnancies caused by rape, but the "argument from inconvenience" holds no sway over me anymore.


theres a problem with the whole "just adopt" thing that the pro-lifers come out with frequently, there are a lot of people who adopt who are either incompetent or abusive. Does this mean adoption shouldn't be an option? no, it just means its not a definite answer to abortion.
My cousin had to put her new daughter up for adoption because she couldn't take care of anymore kids and the women who adopted her let her boyfriend molest the poor thing, aside from that she was malnourished.

For the most part I would agree that human life is valuable and that there are better solutions, but it some situations there really is no healthy/safe alternative.

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