Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
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14-06-2013, 01:22 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(14-06-2013 11:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(14-06-2013 11:25 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  @ revenant and ayametan

Is the secular pro life movement only in regards to abortion or do the include other things such as birth control.

It tends to all fall under that banner. Abstinence only sex-ed, being against most forms of birth control, being vehemently against Planned Parenthood (even though less than 10% of what they do involves abortions) The Personhood Amendment I cited above. All that falls under the Anti-Choice banner.

Why? Sex is natural, marriage is a legal construct, birth control is control.

What is the ethical basis?

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14-06-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(14-06-2013 01:11 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
Quote:osted by Revenant77x - Today 11:32 AM
(Today 11:25 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:
@ revenant and ayametan

Is the secular pro life movement only in regards to abortion or do the include other things such as birth control.

It tends to all fall under that banner. Abstinence only sex-ed, being against most forms of birth control, being vehemently against Planned Parenthood (even though less than 10% of what they do involves abortions) The Personhood Amendment I cited above. All that falls under the Anti-Choice banner.

But theoretically someone could consider a fetus to be a person and that it is murder to kill one but that birth control is no problem because that is not a genetic human

Yes, but that would be a minority opinion in the movement and not what the groups in it actually try to achieve.

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14-06-2013, 01:37 PM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2013 03:21 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(14-06-2013 01:11 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
Quote:osted by Revenant77x - Today 11:32 AM
(Today 11:25 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:
@ revenant and ayametan

Is the secular pro life movement only in regards to abortion or do the include other things such as birth control.

It tends to all fall under that banner. Abstinence only sex-ed, being against most forms of birth control, being vehemently against Planned Parenthood (even though less than 10% of what they do involves abortions) The Personhood Amendment I cited above. All that falls under the Anti-Choice banner.

But theoretically someone could consider a fetus to be a person and that it is murder to kill one but that birth control is no problem because that is not a genetic human

"Murder" is a legal term. "Taking of life" is not always "murder". Your church sanctions the taking of life, under certain circumstances. "Murder" is not a correct word, in this instance, as it is legal. Your personal view is irrelevant, legally. UNLESS THERE IS A LAW against THAT specific form of the taking of life, it cannot be "murder". There is not. You religious people use that word because it's emotionally charged. It is incorrect. It is a fallacy, legally. Have you no education in civics ?

Please tell us EXACTLY, when liffe begins.
a. sperm approaches egg ?
b. 1st electron of sperm cell enters electron cloud of egg cell ?
c. sperm contacts egg wall ?
d. sperm 1/2 way into egg ?
e. sperm entirely in egg ?
f. DNA of sperm contacts DNA of egg ?
g. DNA replication begins ?
h. DNA replication 0.567534521897 % complete ?
i. 1st DNA replication complete, (poof..soul enters) ?
j. 2nd DNA completes ?
k. zygote forms ?
l. zygote multiplies ?
m. zygote begins to travel ?
l. zygote approaches endometrial wall ?
m. zygote touches endometrial wall ?
n. zygote implants in endometrial wall ?

When, exactly does the fairy godmother "poof in" the soul ?

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14-06-2013, 06:27 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
I live in Mississippi, and we voted down the personhood proposition, which would have amended our constitution to say that life begins at fertilization. Mexico has this law, and as a result there are a couple hundred women jailed for "suspicious miscarriages." We all read about the young doctor in Ireland last year who died because she was denied a life-saving abortion even though the fetus was not viable (at like 22 weeks).

I don't know if there is a any secular pro-life movement as here most pro-lifers I know are cite religious reasons for thinking that way. I personally don't see how a fertilized zygote can legally be put above a sentient adult woman, but others have said, it seems to be about control and slut shaming.

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14-06-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(14-06-2013 06:27 PM)cjs Wrote:  I live in Mississippi, and we voted down the personhood proposition, which would have amended our constitution to say that life begins at fertilization. Mexico has this law, and as a result there are a couple hundred women jailed for "suspicious miscarriages." We all read about the young doctor in Ireland last year who died because she was denied a life-saving abortion even though the fetus was not viable (at like 22 weeks).

I don't know if there is a any secular pro-life movement as here most pro-lifers I know are cite religious reasons for thinking that way. I personally don't see how a fertilized zygote can legally be put above a sentient adult woman, but others have said, it seems to be about control and slut shaming.

I have never yet seen a pro-life argument to counter the pro-choice side point for point. They always go into strawman attacks (baby-killers etc) or some kind of vague morality that is impossible to pin down. If your goal is to reduce the number of abortions performed in this country (or anywhere tbh) then the pro-choice side is far more effective than just driving it underground and making the procedure illegal.

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14-06-2013, 07:00 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(14-06-2013 11:25 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  @ revenant and ayametan

Is the secular pro life movement only in regards to abortion or do the include other things such as birth control.

In a debate with Matt Dillahunty (I haven't read the organisation's policies or mission statements), Kristine Kruszelnicki admitted that she was against the morning after pill, since it prevents implantation.

Graphic Images Shown in Kristine's Speech.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P78_V1Z9CO4
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14-06-2013, 07:00 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(14-06-2013 07:08 AM)AyameTan Wrote:  Since the Secular Pro-life movement is still in its infancy (and looking to stay that way for a long time), I thought this might be the most appropriate place for this topic.

Every pro-lifer I have posed this dilemma to (and I will be the first to admit that I did not concoct it myself) have either dodged the issue (by picking a third option) or dismissing it altogether. Here is the dilemma:

Quote:If a hospital was burning down, and you could save either a newborn baby or a petri dish with 20 embryos (BUT NOT BOTH), which would you save?

I'd get the infant to safety.

Here is an example of the former evasion:

http://pjsaunders.blogspot.jp/2013/05/ti...iting.html

Peter Saunders Wrote:I'd grab the petri dish in my left hand and the newborn baby in my right and make for the door :-)

And the latter:

http://fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=14173

Wesley J Smith Wrote:Those dumb scenarios are no basis for the making of public policy. Hey, there are four men on the moon, one falls into a permanent coma. The rocket breaks down and the escape pod can only fit three. Which do you choose? Please.

Has anyone else had a similar experience?

I agree with the late George Carlin. These people don't give a shit about babies or the rights of the unborn. They just see women as brood mares for the state. Turning out new men to be turned into fresh meat for the grinder in some far off war.

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14-06-2013, 07:17 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
Rev, you are correct. I have argued this point with pro-lifers, that outlawing abortion will not stop it, just make women go to butchers. As it is, there is only one abortion clinic left in MS in Jackson. This only hurts poor women who live 2-3 hours away, like in the Delta. Carlo, the personhood deal was all about making women brood mares. And I love George Carlin's pro-life skit!

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15-06-2013, 12:53 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(14-06-2013 07:08 AM)AyameTan Wrote:  Since the Secular Pro-life movement is still in its infancy (and looking to stay that way for a long time), I thought this might be the most appropriate place for this topic.

Every pro-lifer I have posed this dilemma to (and I will be the first to admit that I did not concoct it myself) have either dodged the issue (by picking a third option) or dismissing it altogether. Here is the dilemma:

Quote:If a hospital was burning down, and you could save either a newborn baby or a petri dish with 20 embryos (BUT NOT BOTH), which would you save?

I'd get the infant to safety.

Here is an example of the former evasion:

http://pjsaunders.blogspot.jp/2013/05/ti...iting.html

Peter Saunders Wrote:I'd grab the petri dish in my left hand and the newborn baby in my right and make for the door :-)

And the latter:

http://fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=14173

Wesley J Smith Wrote:Those dumb scenarios are no basis for the making of public policy. Hey, there are four men on the moon, one falls into a permanent coma. The rocket breaks down and the escape pod can only fit three. Which do you choose? Please.

Has anyone else had a similar experience?

Pour the petri dish on the baby and win?

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15-06-2013, 11:01 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(14-06-2013 01:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(14-06-2013 01:11 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  But theoretically someone could consider a fetus to be a person and that it is murder to kill one but that birth control is no problem because that is not a genetic human

"Murder" is a legal term. "Taking of life" is not always "murder". Your church sanctions the taking of life, under certain circumstances. "Murder" is not a correct word, in this instance, as it is legal. Your personal view is irrelevant, legally. UNLESS THERE IS A LAW against THAT specific form of the taking of life, it cannot be "murder". There is not. You religious people use that word because it's emotionally charged. It is incorrect. It is a fallacy, legally. Have you no education in civics ?

Please tell us EXACTLY, when liffe begins.
a. sperm approaches egg ?
b. 1st electron of sperm cell enters electron cloud of egg cell ?
c. sperm contacts egg wall ?
d. sperm 1/2 way into egg ?
e. sperm entirely in egg ?
f. DNA of sperm contacts DNA of egg ?
g. DNA replication begins ?
h. DNA replication 0.567534521897 % complete ?
i. 1st DNA replication complete, (poof..soul enters) ?
j. 2nd DNA completes ?
k. zygote forms ?
l. zygote multiplies ?
m. zygote begins to travel ?
l. zygote approaches endometrial wall ?
m. zygote touches endometrial wall ?
n. zygote implants in endometrial wall ?

When, exactly does the fairy godmother "poof in" the soul ?

There are a few more stages between stage 'n' on your list and screaming baby. Hitchens argued for a pro life position from a humanist stand point, but I think he would find his cutoff at some point much later than just implantation. I disagree with late term abortions for the simple reason that we should err on the side of human life. Obviously the life and health of the mother always needs to be respected as well, so in any situation, even in late term, we should not be mandating a mother to sacrifice her wellbeing for the sake of another. I cannot make a firm call for when exactly the fetus is 'human enough', but I feel comfortable that viability out of the womb with normal medical care that would be afforded to a premature infant is a pretty good line that we should use for placing restrictions on elective abortions.

I've debated the topic with some pro choice folks who have a "first scream" rule for when life begins. It is easy to mock the religious for thinking a single cell or small clump of cells is a full human being, but rarely do I see the question asked of pro choice folks on the other end of the fetal development timeline.
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