Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
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17-06-2013, 09:07 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(17-06-2013 08:43 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The rape and incest thing is because there was no choice there for the woman and forcing her to carry is raping her again. She should have the option of either having the child or aborting with no flak from anyone else. I'm all for women having sex for fun, just be smart about it. If you don't want kids there are cheaper, easier, and far less invasive ways than abortion. Thats my opinion, I believe it is based on rational thought and at the same time I am willing to accept I may be wrong here.

Again, you are saying that the life of the fetus isn't what makes it abortable, it's whether or not the woman had consentual sex. To me, this sounds like you are punishing women who had consensual sex by saying they shouldn't ever abort unless they'll die otherwise. I can understand people who think the fetus is a life and should be preserved (though I don't agree), but I cannot understand how you can say it's ok to terminate if the woman didn't want the sex, but not ok if she had consentual sex. That sounds like slut shaming to me, and not rational thinking (because the issue, as I see it, is the fetus, not the motive for the sex). And again, no birth control method is 100% effective, so unwanted pregnancy is not always the result of, as you put it, not being smart about it. To me, the incest/rape argument makes it seem like pregnancy is a woman's punishment for having a sex life.
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17-06-2013, 09:16 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(17-06-2013 09:07 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(17-06-2013 08:43 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The rape and incest thing is because there was no choice there for the woman and forcing her to carry is raping her again. She should have the option of either having the child or aborting with no flak from anyone else. I'm all for women having sex for fun, just be smart about it. If you don't want kids there are cheaper, easier, and far less invasive ways than abortion. Thats my opinion, I believe it is based on rational thought and at the same time I am willing to accept I may be wrong here.

Again, you are saying that the life of the fetus isn't what makes it abortable, it's whether or not the woman had consentual sex. To me, this sounds like you are punishing women who had consensual sex by saying they shouldn't ever abort unless they'll die otherwise. I can understand people who think the fetus is a life and should be preserved (though I don't agree), but I cannot understand how you can say it's ok to terminate if the woman didn't want the sex, but not ok if she had consentual sex. That sounds like slut shaming to me, and not rational thinking (because the issue, as I see it, is the fetus, not the motive for the sex). And again, no birth control method is 100% effective, so unwanted pregnancy is not always the result of, as you put it, not being smart about it. To me, the incest/rape argument makes it seem like pregnancy is a woman's punishment for having a sex life.

As I said this is a personal belief not one I seek to impose on anyone else. It's not so much I believe in slut shaming or that women can't have sex or any of that Rape/Incest Victims have been abused in the worst possible way so I remove them from the conversation. Even if someone could convince me that the clump of cells at the beginning of a pregnancy is in fact a sentient life I would not care under those circumstances. Since I am pro-choice if the situation you describe were to arise (and I'm not saying they dont just that it is rare that multilevel birth control all fails) then yes she would have the right to terminate before viability.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-06-2013, 09:26 PM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2013 09:32 PM by amyb.)
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
It's rare, but it happens. That being said, I know that some people end up having sex and not using birth control. I'm ok with abortion in that situation, too, because I think it causes the least possible harm.

The rape/incest thing just bothers me because it seems to me that most anti-abortion arguments are supposedly all about the life of the fetus. Making it about the woman's sex life seems like it's more about imposing someone else's sexual morality on the woman.

As for viability, I see it as almost a nonissue because the vast majority of abortions are performed very early in the pregnancy. Sure, it's a legal issue, though.

As for the minority situations that everyone seems to mention, woman who supposedly have a lot of abortions and can't be trusted to use proper birth control: if they keep having unwanted pregnancies and can't be arsed with birth control, it seems to me that they are fucking idiots who shouldn't be having children, so I still support abortion in that case, because i benefits everyone.
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17-06-2013, 09:32 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(17-06-2013 09:26 PM)amyb Wrote:  It's rare, but it happens. That being said, I know that some people end up having sex and not using birth control. I'm ok with abortion in that situation, too, because I think it causes the least possible harm.

The rape/incest thing just bothers me because it seems to me that most anti-abortion arguments are supposedly all about the life of the fetus. Making it about the woman's sex life seems like it's more about imposing someone else's sexual morality on the woman.

As for viability, I see it as almost a nonissue because the vast majority of abortions are performed very early in the pregnancy. Sure, it's a legal issue, though.

Abortion to me is like the final possible action you should take, after every other option failed to pan out. Condoms, Hormonal BC, Plan B all exist and are readily available (and no I am not saying it is all up to the woman to plan for Birth Control) If the situation you describe above were to happen I would not have a problem with her having an abortion (none of my damn business really but if I was a friend and she confided) but I would expect her to be more careful in the future.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-06-2013, 09:39 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(17-06-2013 09:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Abortion to me is like the final possible action you should take, after every other option failed to pan out. Condoms, Hormonal BC, Plan B all exist and are readily available (and no I am not saying it is all up to the woman to plan for Birth Control) If the situation you describe above were to happen I would not have a problem with her having an abortion (none of my damn business really but if I was a friend and she confided) but I would expect her to be more careful in the future.

Abortion is considered the last resort for EVERYONE. People don't have abortions for fun. It's a last resort.

And if the woman is not "more careful" in the future, then what? You'd want to punish her child by being born even though he's unwanted, and being raised by a fucking idiot or being a ward of the state?

It's true that I think anyone who has unprotected sex and doesn't want kids is a fucking idiot, but that doesn't change the fact that it still happens.

As I've stated before, the reason I support the option of abortion in all circumstances is that you're not just punishing the woman for having unprotected sex, you're punishing the child, too. If she can't afford it, you're punishing taxpayers, too. I'd rather that people only had children when they wanted children (not saying unplanned kids are always a bad thing, but some people are not cut out to have kids, and they shouldn't be forced to.)

Quote:As I said this is a personal belief not one I seek to impose on anyone else.

That's the definition of pro choice, by the way. Not imposing your decisions on other people.
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17-06-2013, 09:44 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(17-06-2013 09:39 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(17-06-2013 09:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Abortion to me is like the final possible action you should take, after every other option failed to pan out. Condoms, Hormonal BC, Plan B all exist and are readily available (and no I am not saying it is all up to the woman to plan for Birth Control) If the situation you describe above were to happen I would not have a problem with her having an abortion (none of my damn business really but if I was a friend and she confided) but I would expect her to be more careful in the future.

Abortion is considered the last resort for EVERYONE. People don't have abortions for fun. It's a last resort.

And if the woman is not "more careful" in the future, then what? You'd want to punish her child by being born even though he's unwanted, and being raised by a fucking idiot or being a ward of the state?

It's true that I think anyone who has unprotected sex and doesn't want kids is a fucking idiot, but that doesn't change the fact that it still happens.

As I've stated before, the reason I support the option of abortion in all circumstances is that you're not just punishing the woman for having unprotected sex, you're punishing the child, too. If she can't afford it, you're punishing taxpayers, too. I'd rather that people only had children when they wanted children (not saying unplanned kids are always a bad thing, but some people are not cut out to have kids, and they shouldn't be forced to.)

Quote:As I said this is a personal belief not one I seek to impose on anyone else.

That's the definition of pro choice, by the way. Not imposing your decisions on other people.

So you don't believe in personal accountability at all? You can stop strawmaning me any time now.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-06-2013, 09:52 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
I'm not strawmanning you, I'm explaining why I think abortion should always be an option.

As for accountability, I don't think the woman should be "punished" by being forced to bear an unwanted child even when she does stupid things because she is not the only person who suffers for it. The child may suffer for her actions, and society may suffer.

I just don't quite get the whole love affair with the fetus that a lot of people seem to have. I also think the woman's life (including her desire not to procreate) is always more important than some cells in her uterus.
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17-06-2013, 10:00 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(17-06-2013 09:52 PM)amyb Wrote:  I'm not strawmanning you, I'm explaining why I think abortion should always be an option.

As for accountability, I don't think the woman should be "punished" by being forced to bear an unwanted child even when she does stupid things because she is not the only person who suffers for it. The child may suffer for her actions, and society may suffer.

I just don't quite get the whole love affair with the fetus that a lot of people seem to have. I also think the woman's life (including her desire not to procreate) is always more important than some cells in her uterus.

A woman has a right to terminate any pregnancy and generally speaking I don't take exception with her reasoning unless she does begin to treat it flippantly and not as a last resort (you were mistaken about that there are some who do use it in place of birth control) If they were a friend and asked me my opinion on it I would explain why I feel the way I do and it is partially due to the fact that multiple abortions can lead to sterility or problems conceiving later in life.

I've been in this exact situation with a girl who was like a sister to me and I saw how it almost broke her to go through with this procedure so I do not take it lightly. Her no account boyfriend skipped town when he found out she had gotten knocked up and had left her unable to cover the bills they had acquired and with this hanging over her head. One of the things we talked about was how she needed to start making better decisions, and for the record she is much better off now.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-06-2013, 10:10 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
I think I acknowledged that particular minority in a previous post, but it's a minority, I don't think the rest should suffer for it. I really don't think the majority of women who have abortions treat it "flippantly." And I agree that people should be more responsible, and if you don't want kids, use birth control.

In high school, my best friend got pregnant at 15 (she kept it). I said, "What, did the condom break or something?" I was with her when she bought the pregnancy test. I was in the bathroom with her when she peed on it. She said that the boyfriend didn't like condoms, so he decided to pull out instead. They fucked like rabbits, and apparently, most of the time he was unsuccessful in actually pulling out (though it's still possible to get pregnant if a dude does pull out). I facepalmed hard enough I nearly had a concussion.

But that's one thing that happens. Misinformation like you can't get pregnant if he pulls out. Or people only have sex on certain days when they are less likely to get pregnant (I understand the principle, but I still consider it irresponsible as all hell).
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17-06-2013, 10:17 PM
RE: Pro-lifers and Moral Dilemmas
(17-06-2013 10:10 PM)amyb Wrote:  I think I acknowledged that particular minority in a previous post, but it's a minority, I don't think the rest should suffer for it. I really don't think the majority of women who have abortions treat it "flippantly." And I agree that people should be more responsible, and if you don't want kids, use birth control.

In high school, my best friend got pregnant at 15 (she kept it). I said, "What, did the condom break or something?" I was with her when she bought the pregnancy test. I was in the bathroom with her when she peed on it. She said that the boyfriend didn't like condoms, so he decided to pull out instead. They fucked like rabbits, and apparently, most of the time he was unsuccessful in actually pulling out (though it's still possible to get pregnant if a dude does pull out). I facepalmed hard enough I nearly had a concussion.

But that's one thing that happens. Misinformation like you can't get pregnant if he pulls out. Or people only have sex on certain days when they are less likely to get pregnant (I understand the principle, but I still consider it irresponsible as all hell).

There needs to be better access to information made available to kids so a situation like your friend's become less prevalent. Thats the thing that really pushes the Pro-Life side into truly evil territory they want to not only ban all abortion ever (no exceptions) they want the kids to be completely misinformed about birth control and how sex actually works.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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