Probability for existence of God
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08-11-2017, 02:01 PM
RE: Probability for existence of God
(08-11-2017 01:56 PM)Henri Wrote:  
(08-11-2017 01:34 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  The best argument you have for an all powerful universe creating entity is probability?

I didn't say it's best argument, whatever an "argument" is. I just said it's calculated probability, as thread reads.

Bogus calculations, based on nothing. You cannot support the calculations, or the assumptions you made in doing them.

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08-11-2017, 02:01 PM
RE: Probability for existence of God
One can equally calculate there is a 50/50 chance the Universe was created by leprechauns. We know the universe exists. But there is no sign a God exists, or a supernatural realm. Stacking up unknowns like this means your calculations are off from the beginning. If one wrongly calculates that there is a God (50%/50%) and a supernatural realm (50%/50%) you have 50% 0f 50% or 25% at best. Now calculate the probability God did or did not create the world (50%/50%) and on in this vein. Ancient thinkers posited a primordial chaos that emanated this universe and it's Gods. (Hesiod, Egyptian creation mythology) Maybe that primordial chaos emanated a physical Universe. Or not. It's 50%/50%.

Of course then we have the God complications, God inside time, outside time, predestination and free will, God's alleged omnibenvolence and the existence of evil.
God as described by religion has problems that seem to make that God's existence incoherent and improbable.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter
- Thomas Jefferson

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08-11-2017, 02:05 PM
RE: Probability for existence of God
(08-11-2017 01:56 PM)Henri Wrote:  
(08-11-2017 01:34 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  The best argument you have for an all powerful universe creating entity is probability?

I didn't say it's best argument, whatever an "argument" is. I just said it's calculated probability, as thread reads.

I'm afraid your calculations are pathetically incorrect. You assume a God exists, and then via confirmation bias you input calculations to prove it. It's called a "False Premise."

1. Since the universe exists, it is possible that there's a God.
2. The universe exists.
3. Therefore, a God is possible.

This argument is logically valid, but quite demonstrably wrong because its first premise is false.

The reason it is false is you haven't demonstrated how it is possible that a God could exist.

Please do that now.

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08-11-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: Probability for existence of God
(08-11-2017 01:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  LMAO. Totally false. Nothing but amateur, stupid, biased, uneducated First Grade assumptions. We do not know the conditions in which (if it *did* "start to exist" ... and Hawking's friend Penrose, who is a LOT smarter than you will ever be) thinks the universe is nothing but "Cycles of Time" ... see his book by the same title. Thus "within the reality we can reach" is FAR too small a sample to calculate anything on, as 95 % of this universe is unknown, (Dark Energy and Dark Matter), and we know nothing about their properties or activity.

What point do insults prove?

Calculating probability has nothing to do with sample. You are maybe thinking about distribution, which is another thing. There is no sample needed to calculate probability of a coin toss, for example.

(08-11-2017 01:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If this rubbish did happen to be true, than the god you're talking about can't be the Christian deity, (and of course you failed to name your particular brand of god(s) ... Christian theology says faith is a gift of their god, and they have nothing to do with it .. (scripture upon request). If the probability of a deity approaches 1.00, then no faith is needed, and this is not even about religion. LOL.

Faith is neeeded, of course, since there is no proof a human can provide to prove God's existence, no matter how big probability is. You have huge probability explained to you, yet you still don't believe that God exists.

(08-11-2017 01:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "Creator" is a meaningless term, in the context of "no time". Creation is an act. It's a temporal idea. Did your god *intend* to make a universe ? If so it made a decision FIRST, THEN made one. Before the universe, (as far as we know) spacetime did not exist, thus to make any statements, is a meaningless waste of time, until the conditions are known in which the universe (may have) come to exist.

Existence is "part" of Reality. A creator which exists, MUST partially (only) participate in a Reality that is larger than it. Reality remains unexplained, and your god is not and never could be all of it, as it possesses some qualities, and not others, (by definition). Where did existence (vs non-existence) come from ? You stupid god *found itself* a part of a larger Reality.

Nothing to do with calculating probability.

(08-11-2017 01:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There are MANY more than two options. An omnipotent deity could have made a set of robot universe makers, who make universes to play with. Come back when you get an education, child.

There are only two options relative to what's presented in OP and all other options are subsets of those two options. Any subset option doesn't change probability explained in OP.
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08-11-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: Probability for existence of God
Considering that millions of babies died from thirst, disease, and hunger in the last year ... I'd say there is a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000​000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 % chance something intelligent made the universe. Why would an intelligent being (what does that even *mean* without time ... as thinking is a process) make a universe in which for the life of a Black Hole 1^80 1^100 years, there was no life. Stupid god. Mighty inefficient.

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08-11-2017, 02:08 PM
RE: Probability for existence of God
(08-11-2017 01:56 PM)Henri Wrote:  
(08-11-2017 01:34 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  The best argument you have for an all powerful universe creating entity is probability?

I didn't say it's best argument, whatever an "argument" is. I just said it's calculated probability, as thread reads.

Why calculate probability of a creator when you have something better, like evidence?

But lets calculate:
Quote:Within reality we can reach, it is impossible to calculate less than 50/50 probability that creator who consciously created our universe exists
How did you determine the >=50% chance?
What is your sample size of universes created in total? What is your total probability for universes to come into existence?
What is your sample size of universes created by a creator?
What is your sample size of universes not created by a creator?
What is your reason that "creators" exist at all, based on which you are giving them probabilities to create universes at all?

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08-11-2017, 02:09 PM
RE: Probability for existence of God
(08-11-2017 01:55 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Sorry, rationally speaking the chance is zero percent. A contradiction can't exist. therefore The statement "God exists" can not be true.

Not according to probability calculation. You have to prove, through calculation, that probability is zero if you want to label your conclusion as rational talk.
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08-11-2017, 02:12 PM
RE: Probability for existence of God
(08-11-2017 01:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You have NO information about the conditions which may have given rise to the universe. You can make NO calculations as you have NO relevant information. All you have is a tiny bit of information from INSIDE this universe, and NONE about the conditions in which it may have arisen. IF the Big Bang was where it started, then it was a "singularity", and the laws of physics break down at singularities ... and even in that situation, you have no information about that singularity. All you have here, are a bunch of unsupported assumptions, ... which, when examined, ALL can be shown to be invalid.

That's exactly why we apply probability methods - because we have incomplete information. That's what probability methods are for. And probability of the OP can be calculated, as presented, based on available information.
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08-11-2017, 02:15 PM
RE: Probability for existence of God
(08-11-2017 02:01 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Bogus calculations, based on nothing. You cannot support the calculations, or the assumptions you made in doing them.

Calculation is based on two encompassing options that are symetric to the source of creation, based upon available information. Again, that's what probability is for. You have to prove a number of things about calculation in order to conclude it's not correct.
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08-11-2017, 02:16 PM
RE: Probability for existence of God
(08-11-2017 12:39 PM)Henri Wrote:  (1) There are two encompassing options - that universe got to exist through unconscious means or through conscious means....

You are assuming there was a beginning to the universe, which is unproven. An eternal universe (in some form) or a multiverse are possibilities. Therefore your whole argument fails.
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