Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
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29-09-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(29-09-2016 08:19 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  “That's 'cause you use loaded, inaccurate phrases like "cosmic accident”…”

No, it’s accurate. But your uncomfortability with that position is more revealing to me than anything else. Perhaps you’d say you lack a belief that it’s all a product of a cosmic accident.

Like I said no one honestly believe’s we’re product of a cosmic accident, you more or less just proved my point.

Quote:To put it more simply: Naturally occurring not cosmic accident.

One does not negate the other. A naturally occurring cosmic accident.

Quote:Define "sacred”.

That sense there’s something more to it, behind the curtain, a sense of some transcendent/spiritual order, that serves as the foundation for spiritual and religious beliefs.

Quote:Meaning? We have evolved into pattern seeking primates. It's a survival trait.

Define "truth". If you define truth as "That which is in concordance with reality." then science is the best way to discover truth.

I was just speaking of our desire for truth, regardless of how we define it. And meaning, as is in our desire to live a meaningful life, not merely to survive, in finding something to live for.

Quote:ore loaded terms. "unintentional" - definitely. Until evidence of intention is presented, our only honest choice is "unintentional”.

If I don’t know whether something is intentional, i don’t assume it’s unintentional. I say I don’t know whether it was intentional or unintentional. Either it’s unintentional, or intentional, or we don’’t know one way or the other. So either you believe we're the result of unintentional forces, or intentional ones, or you lack a belief one way or the other. If you believe it's unintentional, but base this on no evidence, then it's a faith position.

Quote:The phrase "cosmic lottery" implies that our existence is unlikely or unusual. We cannot say whether we are unique or not. We also cannot say whether or not our universe is unique, since we have nothing to compare it to.

It is unlikely and unusual regardless if it appears elsewhere or not. Just like winning the lottery is unlikely, regardless if people win the lottery everyday.

Quote:What "coincidence" is there?

That matter has the capacity when arranged in certain configuration to produce conscious creatures, with creative, and moral capacities, that desire, truth and meaning, rather than matter lacking such capacities at all no matter the arrangement.

Quote:More word games. Few atheists will try to prove a negative

Even fewer seem to hold contrary positive beliefs, that would negate theistic view just by being true.

Quote:You are the one who has attempted to redefine the words. Atheists here have routinely cited the accepted definitions of words and there have been discussions about the validity of those definitions.

I provided the accepted understanding of the term theism, when it comes to the a-theist/theist distinction. If an atheists is one who lacks a beliefs in the existence of god or gods, a theist is one who has a belief in the existence of god or gods. A theist in regards to this distinction is not merely one who subscribes to a monotheistic personal god, as if anyone other than those who subscribe to a monotheistic personal god, would be atheist.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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30-09-2016, 01:02 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
Here we go Tommy.

Cosmic accident huh? Have you ever read anything about the big bang? It's a damn good theory supported by a shitload of evidence. Wikipedia is your friend if you really want a good entry level account but for now I'm just going to talk off the top of my head, so I may get some shit slightly wrong. I'm talking off the top of my head to demonstrate that I think about this shit. As opposed to you who just come up with infantile stories like "cosmic accident" and leave it at that.

So firstly, where did the big bang theory come from. Two things. First there was the theoretical side of Einstein's general relativity which IIRC there was some French priest who first pointed out that it would fit with a universe expansion type theory. Einstein himself was quite bothered by this and introduced his famous "gravitational constant" to adjust the equations so that an eternal stable state was possible, but he must have been aware that it was quite a nutty thing to do, he later called it his "worst mistake" although subsequently physicists are now saying that maybe he wasn't quite so nuts after all.

Anyway, the other early observation that kicked things off was Edwin Hubble who was loving gazing at galaxies some time around the 1920s and had figured out a way to gauge how far away they are from Earth. It's helluva clever. You look for certain types of variable stars called Cepheid variables in the galaxy in question, and they are "standard candles" - they have a variable period that is directly related to their luminosity. Anyway, the net result is that for the first time he was able to measure the *distance* of galaxies from Earth. At the same time he was able to measure the *speed* at which these galaxies were travelling towards or away from Earth by looking at their red and blue shifts. Red and blue shift aren't complicated, basically if you imagine standing on a track and a car with a high whining engine noise coming towards you and then passing you and going away. Peeeeeeeeeeeeoiing!! If you know the *actual* frequency at which the car engine is making noise (in the car you'll just hear a constant 'Rrrrrr'), then you can work out what speed the car is going from the frequency of sound that you hear. Red and blue shift are the same thing, but with light instead of sound.

So the net result is Hubble was able to deduce that the further away a galaxy was from Earth, the more it would be red-shifted. i.e. the faster it was travelling away from Earth. This makes sense in an expanding universe model. And if one took the rate at which galaxies were moving away from each other and applied a bit of maths (I don't quite know the logic) one could deduce that the expansion should have started around 15 billion years ago.

Now, a lot of other models were put forward to explain these things. Fred Hoyle was one particular critic of the model who actually named it the 'big bang' in an attempt at sarcasm. He also was a prominent author of alternative theories like the 'steady state' theory etc. So it's not like people decided on this theory right away as the best one. Those evil scientists coming up with alternative theories not involving God Rolleyes

One prediction made by the big bang theory after it was developed more fully was that there should be a constant cosmic microwave background radiation detectable in all directions, a remnant of the original universe explosion. This has been confirmed multiple times.

In the end the big bang theory has become the accepted explanation for how everything got here. This is not to say that the theory didn't have its problems. IIRC there was an issue early on where geologists were saying "Look, you fucks, we know for a fact that the Earth is 4 billion years old, give or take, so your theory is fucked" and the cosmologists were looking a bit silly, because one early attempt to calculate the age of the universe had put it at 2 billion years. Anyway, that was resolved.

This is getting long, but we can go over evolution or the formation of the solar system next. Or you can whine about something stupid.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-09-2016, 02:01 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-09-2016 01:02 AM)morondog Wrote:  Or you can whine about something stupid.

I'll take 'Tommy's Forum Reaction' for $200 Pat.

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30-09-2016, 02:43 AM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2016 02:46 AM by Gloucester.)
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
Late reader of thread but this reminds me of the 50s-60s varieties of socialism.

IIRC you had plain and simple communists, then you had crypto-communists, syndicalists, anarco-syndicalists, crypto-syndicalists, maybe even anarco-crypto-syndicalists! Or was it crypto-anarco-syndicalists. Or both?

There were even such people as utopian socialists, libertarian socpialists . . .

As others have said or implied, if a few people think just slightly differently than the "parent group" they tag a new bit onto their descriptor to preserve their identity.

So I am a secular-humanistic-pragmatic-techno-utilitarian-soft-atheist. Big Grin

But really I'm just a humanist and happy to be a member of a varied bunch of people.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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30-09-2016, 04:27 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
Cosmic accident, cosmic accident, cosmic accident....

The physical laws of our (known) universe demonstrably and evidently allowed for life to rise at least once, at least here, maybe at some other places in some other times too, we dont know.

So fucking what?!

Oh and if you dont like being the result of an "accident", aka. an event that is not planned or intended / an event that occurs by chance, then i have breaking news for ya:
Said universe and its greater reality doesnt give a shit about what you like or want it to be, it just doesnt give a shit. Because it cant, because it has no plan/intend. Facepalm

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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30-09-2016, 08:10 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(29-09-2016 07:26 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Note: I am not talking about any definition of theism that Tomasia may have cherry-picked. I am talking about the one given by Chas. Go back and look at it if you don't believe me.

Precisely. He picks only one and insists on it to support his inane argument that any definition of a god is theism.

It's always more complicated and nuanced than TommyBoy perceives.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-09-2016, 09:17 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-09-2016 08:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 07:26 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Note: I am not talking about any definition of theism that Tomasia may have cherry-picked. I am talking about the one given by Chas. Go back and look at it if you don't believe me.

Precisely. He picks only one and insists on it to support his inane argument that any definition of a god is theism.

It's always more complicated and nuanced than TommyBoy perceives.

Personally, I think he has a point. However, (a) In his typical fashion, he's belaboring the shit out of it; and (b) Is it really that important? I'll grant that deism and pantheism can be considered forms of theism ("pan-theism" sort of explicitly says so). But -- so what? I can't for the life of me see what earth-shattering revelation he's trying to get to. He's acting like this semantic triviality is the most important thing ever. Yawn.
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30-09-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
Come to think of it, is there any practical difference between atheism ("there is no god") and pantheism ("everything is god")? Would you live your life any differently if one were true rather than the other? If the difference doesn't matter, why should we care about it?
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30-09-2016, 02:46 PM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(27-09-2016 07:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you lack a belief in a God defined by your personal preference, yet believe in a God according to someone's else personal preference, would you be an atheist or a theist?

If a person has a belief in the existence of any god, then by definition they're a theist. One cannot be an atheist and believe in a god. End of story.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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02-10-2016, 06:12 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-09-2016 01:02 AM)morondog Wrote:  Here we go Tommy.

Cosmic accident huh? Have you ever read anything about the big bang? It's a damn good theory supported by a shitload of evidence.

This is getting long, but we can go over evolution or the formation of the solar system next. Or you can whine about something stupid.

Not sure what you're going on about here, I concede the big bang occured, and evolution happened.

What I find interesting, is that even though there are a variety of atheistic worldviews, very few atheists actually hold them. Most atheists don't seem to see their own lack of belief here, as result of holding contrary beliefs, like I lack a belief the earth is flat, as the result of believing it's round. Instead they see themselves like undecided voters, a lack of confidence in a world absent of God, and one endowed by him. They lack a belief in whether life is intentional, or unintentional, whether we're product of a cosmic accident, or some purpose.

To imagine life as a cosmic accident appears absurd, not just to theists apparently, but even to atheists, who you'd be hard to pressed to find those who support such a view with a straight face. In fact they see the concept of a reality born of a cosmic accident, as uncomfortable, the words too loaded.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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