Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
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30-08-2015, 09:51 AM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2015 09:55 AM by Matrim Cauthon.)
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 09:40 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  favorite character of all time in a novel, bloody right he is!

Hell - to the - YES! Wink LOL

(30-08-2015 09:40 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I can prove it...[SNIP]...They are allowed to be certain but I am not?

Don't you mean it's 'less probable than a million other possibilities'? I was right with you until you begin to suggest ability to 'prove a negative'...? Perhaps it's just 'terms/definitions' in this case - but I'd assumed that, YES, all I can say is that any kind of theism is 'improbable' - but then can also say, that it's more probable to be struck by lightning in a cave, 10 times in a row, in less than 10 minutes - than that any theism is true. Sure - it's 'possible'...but waaaaaaay highly 'improbable'.

EDIT: Which...per the above, I suppose you can get 'certainty'...but that's per a subjective view of it's meaning. I.e., I don't think you could reach as far as to say "I know theism isn't true, and can prove it factually".

Thoughts?

“Narg know people come back somtimes. Narg wait. You no need sword. Put sword down. Narg no hurt.” – Narg
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30-08-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 09:51 AM)Matrim Cauthon Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 09:40 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  favorite character of all time in a novel, bloody right he is!

Hell - to the - YES! Wink LOL

[Image: Love-birds-images.jpg]

OK, I'm done now. Big Grin

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30-08-2015, 10:00 AM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2015 10:06 AM by cactus.)
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
I consider myself a strong atheist: "gods don't exist", because when most people use the word "god", they're referring to an idea that's either demonstrably false, vague to the point of having no meaning (like "the universe is God"), or defined and perpetually re-defined in such a way as to always remain intentionally non-falsifiable. The very idea of a "god" reeks of human invention, to the point where I don't even bother entertaining the possibility anymore.

If we were to ever discover that the universe is the work of a conscious being, I don't think the word "god" would even be a useful way to describe it. People would deny the evidence and say "that's not my God," and find a reason to continue believing in irrational things.

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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30-08-2015, 10:11 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 09:44 AM)Matrim Cauthon Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 05:12 AM)julep Wrote:  Doesn't bother me. I like hearing people describe how atheism makes sense for them and how it fits in with their philosophy, politics, etc.

The impulse towards orthodoxy (that there's a "right" way to be an atheist, and that's the one that feels the best to me and my buds) strikes me as sadly human, that awful tribal thing we do. Making a group, not just to support, but to compete with and diminish others.

But--at least we're not telling anyone we disagree with that when eternity comes, they'll be sorry.

Sure - agreed on the 'orthodox atheist' statement...however, only partially what I meant. Rather, not necessarily criticizing someone just attaching an adjective to their atheism (like "anarchist libertarian") - but more 'playing games' with the names, to enable their own human'esque 'Theistic Tendencies', trying yet another 'new and creative way' to fit the square peg in the round hole, and scratch and claw to still be able to find Jesus within Science and Probability.

So your problem more is with what one might see as weak theists trying to sneak into the atheist fold by loading on vague qualifiers?

I guess this still wouldn't bother me. I'd take it as a sign the person is getting uncomfortable with the concept of theism, so they're dipping a toe in to test the water, so to speak. The moniker is less important to me than the desirable results of more atheists around and more acceptance of atheists.

The more believers who are reluctant to proclaim themselves Christians, Muslims, etc., the better.
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30-08-2015, 10:18 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 10:11 AM)julep Wrote:  The more believers who are reluctant to proclaim themselves Christians, Muslims, etc., the better.

Not really. It's matter not if they call themselves Christians or Muslim, labels are irrelevant in this case. It's about not trying to force other to conform to their taboos.

As long as believers aren't trying to tell others how they should live their life I don't care if they identify as a Christians, Muslims or wahtever else.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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30-08-2015, 10:25 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 10:18 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 10:11 AM)julep Wrote:  The more believers who are reluctant to proclaim themselves Christians, Muslims, etc., the better.

Not really. It's matter not if they call themselves Christians or Muslim, labels are irrelevant in this case. It's about not trying to force other to conform to their taboos.

As long as believers aren't trying to tell others how they should live their life I don't care if they identify as a Christians, Muslims or wahtever else.

The people I've seen trying to force religion-based taboos on others have all proudly worn the label of their religion. (my experience is in the US) I haven't seen weak theists doing the same, but I'm sure there are some.

Still, I think that growing numbers of people willing to identify atheism as part of their belief system is a positive trend.
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30-08-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
I just don't believe in fairy tales anymore, that's all.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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30-08-2015, 10:44 AM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2015 11:50 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 10:25 AM)julep Wrote:  The people I've seen trying to force religion-based taboos on others have all proudly worn the label of their religion. (my experience is in the US) I haven't seen weak theists doing the same, but I'm sure there are some.

In Poland it looks somewhat different - believers like to force their taboo on others but they aren't necessarily proud of being labeled as a Christians or rather Catholics; neither they are ashamed though, it's more about believing in some personal god and knowing shit about own religion.

Here religion is more a matter of tradition and way to justify one's bigotry. I think it isn't about catholicism but personal dislike and authoritarian tendencies, which would not be surprising in country with authoritatian past.

(30-08-2015 10:25 AM)julep Wrote:  Still, I think that growing numbers of people willing to identify atheism as part of their belief system is a positive trend.

I agree. But for me is mainly about not trying to force others to live according to your rules rather than being theist/atheist. You can be believer and not be dick about it, you can be atheist and be piece of shit. It's more about respecting freedom of others which could be kinda unheard of in some countries.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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30-08-2015, 04:58 PM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 10:00 AM)cactus Wrote:  I consider myself a strong atheist: "gods don't exist", because when most people use the word "god", they're referring to an idea that's either demonstrably false, vague to the point of having no meaning (like "the universe is God"), or defined and perpetually re-defined in such a way as to always remain intentionally non-falsifiable. The very idea of a "god" reeks of human invention, to the point where I don't even bother entertaining the possibility anymore.

If we were to ever discover that the universe is the work of a conscious being, I don't think the word "god" would even be a useful way to describe it. People would deny the evidence and say "that's not my God," and find a reason to continue believing in irrational things.

Ok - I can see that... more of a 'real every day world' kind of take on it. Really, I'd have to kind of admit the same too (very similar to motivation/intent for this post). Getting into a 'scientific discussion' with someone about it requires some concessions - but..."between you, me, and the wall" (despite technicalities, etc) - right, no doubt whatsoever of 'Theism' being nothing but a bunch of horse &*$%. Agreed... (although that stance isn't feasible in 'debate')

“Narg know people come back somtimes. Narg wait. You no need sword. Put sword down. Narg no hurt.” – Narg
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30-08-2015, 05:00 PM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 10:30 AM)Dom Wrote:  I just don't believe in fairy tales anymore, that's all.

BAM! Bullseye...

“Narg know people come back somtimes. Narg wait. You no need sword. Put sword down. Narg no hurt.” – Narg
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