Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
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30-08-2015, 11:09 PM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2015 12:01 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 09:21 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  OK true scotsman, I have parsed those data and have formulated a well-considered, thoroughly reasoned rebuttal:

Objectivism is wrong because Ayn Rand. Big Grin

My concern earlier was that why accept one axiom as having more validity; Burner's response seems to be, well, then, present the alternative. Sure, there is more to it than that, but exploring the validity of Objectivism seems to be beyond the scope of this thread. Here, the question seems to be, is the primacy of existence sufficient justification of a 7, and yeah, I can go with that.

Well we don't have to even consider the validity of the whole of Objectivism. That is irrelevant. This issue of primacy is the most fundamental issue in philosophy. It is at the very base of knowledge. And if it's true then theism is false, flat and simple. And it is undeniably true. If one denies it then one is affirming that "wishing makes things so", which we know from our own first hand experience isn't the case. Since we are talking about the relationship here between a conscious subject and its objects there are only two possible choices. Either "wishing makes it so" or it doesn't. I'll go with the objective theory of truth and let theists continue to contradict themselves whenever they claim that their god exists, because I'm certain that they would not say that their god is dependent on their conscious activity for its existence. But, at the same time they claim that there is this consciousness on which everything depends. Thus they alternate between affirming the primacy of existence and denying it. I can be fully consistent with my philosophy's fundamentals without contradicting myself, they can not as Call of the Wild demonstrated when he said "Creation belongs to God, whether we like it or not" invoking the primacy of existence in opposition to his own worldview's premise of the primacy of consciousness. It's a slam dunk.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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30-08-2015, 11:21 PM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 12:57 AM)Matrim Cauthon Wrote:  I just get tired lately when someone says something like "I'm a neo-philosophical humanist agnostic with both theist and deistic tendencies".


People say this to you??? Where do you spend your time??

Nobody has ever said anything like that to me in 51 years.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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31-08-2015, 12:00 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 06:52 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 06:14 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  -waxes philosophic-

Streamlined this balloon since last you tried to float it. My original concern still stands, but hey, that's beyond the scope of this discussion. Big Grin

Oh, was this the link you were looking for? linky-linky


Sorry, didn't see your link the first time I read your post. That is one of many papers that Bahnsen Burner has written on the subject. Anton Thorn is also another source for writings on the subject.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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31-08-2015, 12:52 AM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2015 01:02 AM by Matrim Cauthon.)
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(30-08-2015 11:21 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 12:57 AM)Matrim Cauthon Wrote:  I just get tired lately when someone says something like "I'm a neo-philosophical humanist agnostic with both theist and deistic tendencies".


People say this to you??? Where do you spend your time??

Nobody has ever said anything like that to me in 51 years.

Granted, "someone says something" wasn't 'them saying it to me' much of the time. I see it said, in one way or another, quite often - and it's not just the various titles themselves - but the thinking it represents. Most often (but truly not always), I feel like it's either (1) someone's stop along the way as they naturally progress through de-conversion - or (2) it's someone getting just wilder and wilder to maintain their theist tendencies, in the face of modern reason and knowledge (the true 'target opposition').

"Where I spend my time"?...I and 2 others were really the only atheists in our personal/extended circles for a long while - thus, shortly after becoming more motivated and vocal over the least year or so (for non-local reasons), it's sort of made us the 'resident local specialists' within these circles. We're these people's "black friend", so to speak (familiar concept to those same people) - and what does it, is that all of us (me especially) LOVE to entertain this. This has led to 5-10 religious discussions a day, which compounds how much I already spent thinking about it - and now it's just rapidly evolved into a "bonafide daily interest" (even some quasi-celebrity status "you're Jay's Atheist friend!")... So...lot of reading, lot of study, lot of conversations - and (as up top) a lot of OG-BibleBelters with a host of different flavored acrobatics (near 1 x 1) to make the square peg of 'Southern Christianity', fit through the round hole of Modern Reason...

...At least these folks are trying to be sophisticated about it, at least there's that. Many around here, I wouldn't even talk to about it without witnesses as I might find myself dragged behind a pickup truck through a cornfield, never to be seen again...so there's that.

“Narg know people come back somtimes. Narg wait. You no need sword. Put sword down. Narg no hurt.” – Narg
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31-08-2015, 01:09 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
Wow, you really are a WoT fan. Kudos on the obscure trollock reference. Big Grin

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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31-08-2015, 01:16 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(31-08-2015 01:09 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Wow, you really are a WoT fan. Kudos on the obscure trollock reference. Big Grin

Is there anyone who isn't a WOT fan? If so, into the cook pot they go.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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31-08-2015, 01:29 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(31-08-2015 01:16 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(31-08-2015 01:09 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Wow, you really are a WoT fan. Kudos on the obscure trollock reference. Big Grin

Is there anyone who isn't a WOT fan? If so, into the cook pot they go.

Burn them to blood and bloody ashes if they aren't!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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31-08-2015, 01:34 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(31-08-2015 01:29 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(31-08-2015 01:16 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Is there anyone who isn't a WOT fan? If so, into the cook pot they go.

Burn them to blood and bloody ashes if they aren't!

Misbegotten lumps of a pig's backside that they are.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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31-08-2015, 03:19 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
(31-08-2015 01:16 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(31-08-2015 01:09 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Wow, you really are a WoT fan. Kudos on the obscure trollock reference. Big Grin

Is there anyone who isn't a WOT fan? If so, into the cook pot they go.

Unsure

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31-08-2015, 11:28 AM
RE: Probable, or Not. The 1000 flavors is boring me...
I am also a strong atheist, but my atheism is not what defines me as a person. I prefer to live my life in real-time, dealing with the current reality of all that exists, and discovering new things about existence and myself as life goes on.

I can say with certainty that there are no gods, and prove it also. But it's not all that important to me to go around like some kind of militant with an in-your-face attitude about it.

My feeling is that if people want to remain entrenched in the past and believe in these ancient (or even modern) deities, then that's their problem. If they want to impede their ability to think rationally then they do themselves a disservice to both themselves and humankind.

I do not have an agnostic bone in my body in regards to gods, as I find no evidence to support that position at all, and plenty of evidence to refute it completely. To me, you are either a theist, or an atheist; no room in between.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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