Probing Men's Rights
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17-08-2014, 11:40 PM
RE: Probing Men's Rights
(17-08-2014 11:15 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(17-08-2014 10:06 PM)Vosur Wrote:  According to Oxford Dictionaries, feminism is "the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."

What's your source? Consider

Merriam-Webster, Google, Cambridge...

Read your Oxford definition again Vosur. Feminism has traditionally been about woman's advocacy, because it started by fighting the largest elephant in the room. But what has been the end goal? The end of sexual discrimination. Heaven forbid that transgender issues weren't even on the radar back during woman's suffrage; but if you believe in the goals of feminism (equality of the sexes), then that includes equality for all sexes. The support for transgender and homosexual equality is implicit if you just follow the logic to it's conclusion.

Cool story bro...

Feminism is still an awfully misleading name for sexual equality, so I can see why some prefer humanist, when they've got everything else checked off.
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17-08-2014, 11:49 PM
RE: Probing Men's Rights
(17-08-2014 11:40 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  
(17-08-2014 11:15 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Merriam-Webster, Google, Cambridge...

Read your Oxford definition again Vosur. Feminism has traditionally been about woman's advocacy, because it started by fighting the largest elephant in the room. But what has been the end goal? The end of sexual discrimination. Heaven forbid that transgender issues weren't even on the radar back during woman's suffrage; but if you believe in the goals of feminism (equality of the sexes), then that includes equality for all sexes. The support for transgender and homosexual equality is implicit if you just follow the logic to it's conclusion.

Cool story bro...

Feminism is still an awfully misleading name for sexual equality, so I can see why some prefer humanist, when they've got everything else checked off.

I get that, and it's because it is a linguistic and historical hold over. I'm a feminist, and a humanist, among other things. But it doesn't do anyone any good to continue on mischaracterizing what feminism is and is not. I still believe in, and advocate for, sexual equality regardless of the label used.

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17-08-2014, 11:53 PM
RE: Probing Men's Rights
(17-08-2014 11:15 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(17-08-2014 10:06 PM)Vosur Wrote:  According to Oxford Dictionaries, feminism is "the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."

What's your source? Consider

Merriam-Webster, Google, Cambridge...

Read your Oxford definition again Vosur. Feminism has traditionally been about woman's advocacy, because it started by fighting the largest elephant in the room. But what has been the end goal? The end of sexual discrimination. Heaven forbid that transgender issues weren't even on the radar back during woman's suffrage; but if you believe in the goals of feminism (equality of the sexes), then that includes equality for all sexes. The support for transgender and homosexual equality is implicit if you just follow the logic to it's conclusion.

Yes and no. Let us go over your three definition sources:

Google:

the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/
the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2
: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dicti...h/feminism

the belief that women should have the same economic, social, and political rights as men

Only one out of the three sources you got your definition from agree with your position. And here is the yes and no part

Yes, because when females get equal rights like males then both sexes have equal rights

However it is no because if females ever got more rights then men, feminism would not help the men. Why? Because feminism is to empower women not support men. Remember this word has been around since the 1800's and has been the same for that long.

In turn Vosur and AtO got it right is saying humanist>feminism as by definition feminism only works if females need rights and that is it.

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18-08-2014, 12:07 AM
RE: Probing Men's Rights
EvolutionKills is exactly right. If you read any modern feminist blog, or subscribe to any feminist literature, the issues plagueing transgender and homosexuals come up as often if not more than the plights of woman. It might be tempting to see them as ideologically distinct, but in practice modern feminists are also LGBQT activists, and vice versa. To say that feminism is only about the rights of cis, heterosexual white woman is a gross mischaracterization of the movement.
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18-08-2014, 12:19 AM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2014 12:23 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Probing Men's Rights
(17-08-2014 11:53 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  However it is no because if females ever got more rights then men, feminism would not help the men. Why? Because feminism is to empower women not support men. Remember this word has been around since the 1800's and has been the same for that long.

In turn Vosur and AtO got it right is saying humanist>feminism as by definition feminism only works if females need rights and that is it.

Female superiority IS NOT feminism, so there is that... Facepalm

And this goes back the the mischaracterization of feminism that helps no-one.

Let me quote myself...

(17-08-2014 10:56 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Feminism is not just about woman making less on the dollar than their male counterparts, it's also about the unfair imbalance given to women in custody battles. Feminism is about equality. What part of 'equality' is so hard for people to understand?

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18-08-2014, 12:45 AM
RE: Probing Men's Rights
(18-08-2014 12:07 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  EvolutionKills is exactly right. If you read any modern feminist blog, or subscribe to any feminist literature, the issues plagueing transgender and homosexuals come up as often if not more than the plights of woman. It might be tempting to see them as ideologically distinct, but in practice modern feminists are also LGBQT activists, and vice versa. To say that feminism is only about the rights of cis, heterosexual white woman is a gross mischaracterization of the movement.

Nobody said that feminism was only for heterosexual white women. In fact many feminist are also lesbians. This is not a refutation point, but more of something I must address.

Second, feminist may care, but feminism is not underlying postion for rights to men and transgender. It is only towards female rights, as I said before, if females gained more rights then males, feminism is for women rights only. That is why many take the humanist position instead.

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18-08-2014, 12:56 AM
RE: Probing Men's Rights
(18-08-2014 12:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  \
Female superiority IS NOT feminism, so there is that... Facepalm

And this goes back the the mischaracterization of feminism that helps no-one.
First I never said feminism is about female superiotrity here is what I said

Because feminism is to empower women not support men

And that is what it has always been, hell it has part feminine which in short means female attributes.
Let me quote myself...

(17-08-2014 10:56 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Feminism is not just about woman making less on the dollar than their male counterparts, it's also about the unfair imbalance given to women in custody battles. Feminism is about equality. What part of 'equality' is so hard for people to understand?

And I said it is for women to have equality to men, not equality for all. As I said before if men had less rights then women, feminist would not care as woman now have more rights then men and the goal has already been completed when women became equal to men. When women have the same rights as men, they will not care because the goal is complete. So feminism is for equality but for females only.

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18-08-2014, 01:13 AM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2014 01:31 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Probing Men's Rights
(18-08-2014 12:56 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(18-08-2014 12:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  \
Female superiority IS NOT feminism, so there is that... Facepalm

And this goes back the the mischaracterization of feminism that helps no-one.
First I never said feminism is about female superiotrity here is what I said

Because feminism is to empower women not support men

And that is what it has always been, hell it has part feminine which in short means female attributes.
Let me quote myself...

(17-08-2014 10:56 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Feminism is not just about woman making less on the dollar than their male counterparts, it's also about the unfair imbalance given to women in custody battles. Feminism is about equality. What part of 'equality' is so hard for people to understand?

And I said it is for women to have equality to men, not equality for all. As I said before if men had less rights then women, feminist would not care as woman now have more rights then men and the goal has already been completed when women became equal to men. When women have the same rights as men, they will not care because the goal is complete. So feminism is for equality but for females only.

And I'm tell you, that you are mischaracterizing feminism. What you are complaining about is not feminism, end of story. Sexual equality has not been achieved in a society that slut-shames women and lionizes men for the exact-same behavior. To achieve equality has meant, in large part, the advocacy for women; because the vast majority of sexual inequality leaves women with the short end of the stick.

It's ignorant people like you that perpetuate 'feminist' as a dirty word, in the same vein that conservatives do to liberals and the religious do to the unbelievers. Facepalm

For example...

The religious say that all atheists believe that there is no God, and that atheism is a religion; when literally no atheist agree with that characterization, because it is wrong. You are doing the same thing to feminism. And just like it's doesn't matter what the Oxford definition says about Feminism or Atheism (many dictionaries still define Atheism or Atheist as the positive belief that God with a capitol G does not exist), because the dictionary makers are behind the times in comparison to what those labels mean in practice by those who adopt them.

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18-08-2014, 01:24 AM
RE: Probing Men's Rights
(18-08-2014 01:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And I'm tell you, that you are mischaracterizing feminism. What you are complaining about is not feminism, end of story. Sexual equality has not been achieved in a society that slut-shames women and lionizes men for the exact-same behavior.

How? I have shown the definition and all but one say it means giving women equal rights to men, not equality for all. I am not going based on how I feel, but what consensus says feminism is by definition. So don't tell me I got it wrong, tell those who have formed our modern English language.

(18-08-2014 01:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's ignorant people like you that perpetuate 'feminist' as a dirty word, in the same vein that conservatives do to liberals and the religious do to the unbelievers. Facepalm

Did I say feminism is bad? No, I did not. I agree that feminism is in the right position, and that what females are called sluts for males are called boss for is bullshit, I agree that females should have the same rights as males, and I agree the femi-nazis do not represent feminism. However, feminism will only benefit females in the long wrong when it comes to rights, that is what it is supposed to do. Which is why I agreed with AtO and Vosur before, because humanism covers humans rights in general.

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18-08-2014, 03:49 AM
RE: Probing Men's Rights
(18-08-2014 01:24 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(18-08-2014 01:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And I'm tell you, that you are mischaracterizing feminism. What you are complaining about is not feminism, end of story. Sexual equality has not been achieved in a society that slut-shames women and lionizes men for the exact-same behavior.

How? I have shown the definition and all but one say it means giving women equal rights to men, not equality for all. I am not going based on how I feel, but what consensus says feminism is by definition. So don't tell me I got it wrong, tell those who have formed our modern English language.

(18-08-2014 01:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's ignorant people like you that perpetuate 'feminist' as a dirty word, in the same vein that conservatives do to liberals and the religious do to the unbelievers. Facepalm

Did I say feminism is bad? No, I did not. I agree that feminism is in the right position, and that what females are called sluts for males are called boss for is bullshit, I agree that females should have the same rights as males, and I agree the femi-nazis do not represent feminism. However, feminism will only benefit females in the long wrong when it comes to rights, that is what it is supposed to do. Which is why I agreed with AtO and Vosur before, because humanism covers humans rights in general.

Okay, fine. I disagree with you on the particulars, but I get it.

So can we stop cannibalizing each other over pedantic definitions, and get back to how much of a misogynistic asshole Res Publica is? Tongue

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