Problem of Evil and an Impotent God
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18-01-2013, 09:10 AM
RE: Problem of Evil and an Impotent God
...at least I'm consistent.

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18-01-2013, 09:31 AM
RE: Problem of Evil and an Impotent God
(18-01-2013 09:10 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...at least I'm consistent.
In your case, that's not so good. Consider

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18-01-2013, 09:39 AM
RE: Problem of Evil and an Impotent God
(18-01-2013 07:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2013 07:46 AM)Dom Wrote:  If he were omnipotent, he'd be the most malevolent being ever.



No, Dom, things could be much worse than they are. Shocking


Things could be worse, yes. But no other being has ever messed up so bad and caused as much suffering and murder and what have you as an omipotent god.

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18-01-2013, 09:46 AM
RE: Problem of Evil and an Impotent God
(18-01-2013 07:01 AM)Chujutsu Wrote:  Hello guys.

I thought before regarding the problem of evil. It forces believers to accept that their god cannot be both omnipotent and benevolent. I thought that it would be preferable to accept that god is not omnipotent over that god is not benevolent (after all, why worship a malevolent god?).

I would like to ask the implications of a god who is not omnipotent. Back when I was a Christian, I simply shrugged off that perhaps god still has a lot of power (considering that omnipotence is the absolute in power; just because one is not omnipotent doesn't mean that he is not powerful at all).

Is it undesirable to have our hypothetical god as not omnipotent?
If a god is not omnipotent, why would it be a god at all?

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18-01-2013, 10:01 AM
RE: Problem of Evil and an Impotent God
(18-01-2013 09:39 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-01-2013 07:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, Dom, things could be much worse than they are. Shocking


Things could be worse, yes. But no other being has ever messed up so bad and caused as much suffering and murder and what have you as an omipotent god.


Not sure what you're saying. I don't think there ever has been an omnipotent god. Consider

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18-01-2013, 10:45 AM
RE: Problem of Evil and an Impotent God
(18-01-2013 10:01 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2013 09:39 AM)Dom Wrote:  Things could be worse, yes. But no other being has ever messed up so bad and caused as much suffering and murder and what have you as an omipotent god.



Not sure what you're saying. I don't think there ever has been an omnipotent god. Consider


Well no, he lives in a fairy tale book called the bible. Actually we are talking about a story character.

I am saying that putting all the casualties Hitler and other human violent nutcases caused in a box, and the ones an omnipotent god in the other, the god box will be a lot fuller than the one filled by human miscreants.

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18-01-2013, 12:54 PM
RE: Problem of Evil and an Impotent God
I never understood this.

Who exactly claims that God is omnibenevolent (that's an actual question, not a dismissal of the notion)? It's certainly not a universal religious claim. Zeus sure as shit ain't omnibenevolent. He's a right prick.

Plus, I find it... I don't know actually... not hyperbolous, not.... maybe a mischaractarisation... maybe unfair... anyway, I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that God is malevolent. It's like plus minus in hockey. If there is a God, I gotta thank him for the whole having hands and eyes and life and orgasms and Arnold Shwarzenegger films. That shit's dope. Anyhoo, I think it's easy to condemn him as malevolent, but that it dismisses the acts of benevolence that he clearly engages in (assuming he exists).

Also, omnibenevolence is about character, not power. He can be a bit of a dick and still be omnipotent. Being benevolent is a choice. It would be if he couldn't make that choice that would render him non-omnipotent.

For me, the problem of evil is only a problem for an omnibenevolent God. So, I guess people who think he's omnibenevolent have a pretty big problem. But for everyone else, we're left with a God that does some really dope shit and some really whack shit. Responsible for both.

Does the fact that someone does something shitty negate the fact that they do something good?

I mean sure, we can look at wars and floods and famines and call him an asshole for that. But what about hockey and chocolate and the Internet and, y'know, life? That life thing is pretty high on my list of awesome shit.

I think more to the point, God's primary job, it would seem, is deciding what happens and what doesn't. Any way you slice it, the way this universe is set up, some people get some pretty nice gifts and others get a raw deal. Sometimes the lion gets the zebra, sometimes the zebra kicks the lion in the face and runs off. In either case, one is good for one and bad for the other. I mean, did I want my dad to die? Of course not. But shit happens. I mean, I still have my mom and she's pretty fucking amazing I gotta say.

I don't know. I agree that this omnibenevolent stuff doesn't really bear out. The problem of evil seems to negate it (unless you accept that God is capable of paradox, then it's rendered useless). But I think that some of the conclusions based on that knowledge haven't really been thought through enough.

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Matt
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18-01-2013, 01:04 PM
RE: Problem of Evil and an Impotent God
(18-01-2013 12:54 PM)Ghost Wrote:  I never understood this.

Who exactly claims that God is omnibenevolent (that's an actual question, not a dismissal of the notion)? It's certainly not a universal religious claim. Zeus sure as shit ain't omnibenevolent. He's a right prick.

Plus, I find it... I don't know actually... not hyperbolous, not.... maybe a mischaractarisation... maybe unfair... anyway, I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that God is malevolent. It's like plus minus in hockey. If there is a God, I gotta thank him for the whole having hands and eyes and life and orgasms and Arnold Shwarzenegger films. That shit's dope. Anyhoo, I think it's easy to condemn him as malevolent, but that it dismisses the acts of benevolence that he clearly engages in (assuming he exists).

Also, omnibenevolence is about character, not power. He can be a bit of a dick and still be omnipotent. Being benevolent is a choice. It would be if he couldn't make that choice that would render him non-omnipotent.

For me, the problem of evil is only a problem for an omnibenevolent God. So, I guess people who think he's omnibenevolent have a pretty big problem. But for everyone else, we're left with a God that does some really dope shit and some really whack shit. Responsible for both.

Does the fact that someone does something shitty negate the fact that they do something good?

I mean sure, we can look at wars and floods and famines and call him an asshole for that. But what about hockey and chocolate and the Internet and, y'know, life? That life thing is pretty high on my list of awesome shit.

I think more to the point, God's primary job, it would seem, is deciding what happens and what doesn't. Any way you slice it, the way this universe is set up, some people get some pretty nice gifts and others get a raw deal. Sometimes the lion gets the zebra, sometimes the zebra kicks the lion in the face and runs off. In either case, one is good for one and bad for the other. I mean, did I want my dad to die? Of course not. But shit happens. I mean, I still have my mom and she's pretty fucking amazing I gotta say.

I don't know. I agree that this omnibenevolent stuff doesn't really bear out. The problem of evil seems to negate it (unless you accept that God is capable of paradox, then it's rendered useless). But I think that some of the conclusions based on that knowledge haven't really been thought through enough.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt


Yes, all that. What it comes down to is that there is no coherent concept of 'God' that includes any more than one of the omni-s.

I would claim, moreover, that I have never heard of any coherent description of any theistic god.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-01-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: Problem of Evil and an Impotent God
Hey, Chas.

Well, you know what I say. I don't care who's right or wrong about the character description of God. Maybe he's Vishnu, maybe he's Zeus, maybe he's the Judeo-Christian God, maybe he's Crow Spirit, maybe he's all, maybe he's none. All of that shit is speculation. The only important question for me is, "Is there a God?" And the answer to that, I know not.





These guys got everything wrong about William Wallace, and yet there he stands, no anal lightning, ripping off the Saint Crispin's Day speech from Henry V... well sits. He's on a horse Cool

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