Proceating Evil
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15-02-2014, 12:45 PM
RE: Proceating Evil
(15-02-2014 12:34 PM)pairunoyd Wrote:  But many atheists that proclaim that the world is too evil for a good god to exist nonetheless procreate children that they claim to love.

Two responses:

"world is too evil for good god to exist" - not my first choice of words but yes, lets go with that.

"procreate children that they claim to love" - just idiotic, and you must be too warped in your thinking to even engage in any discussion concerning god, or love, in any sense. WTFF?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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15-02-2014, 12:48 PM
RE: Proceating Evil
(15-02-2014 12:34 PM)pairunoyd Wrote:  You can question whether or not their god is good, but if they think that he is good and he says to procreate then it would make sense for them to do so. Its consistent.

But many atheists that proclaim that the world is too evil for a good god to exist nonetheless procreate children that they claim to love.

It's not a "good god", for religious people it tends to be an infinitely good god who is perfect in every way and loves everyone unconditionally.

The presence of natural disasters and disease doesn't make the world evil; it just makes the idea that such a god, with unending goodness and love, exists idiotic.
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15-02-2014, 12:51 PM
RE: Proceating Evil

  1. God exists.
  2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
  3. An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
  4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
  5. An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
  6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
  7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
  8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).
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15-02-2014, 01:04 PM
RE: Proceating Evil
(15-02-2014 12:51 PM)donotwant Wrote:  
  1. God exists.
  2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
  3. An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
  4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
  5. An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
  6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
  7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
  8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).
god creates a world where evil exists.
he puts humans into that world.
therefore hes evil.

you live in a world where evil exists.
you reproduce humans in that world.
therefore youre evil.

Does a loving parent cause a child evil/suffering for their own good? Do they always let them do what they want to do? We in our limited knowledge know that we can raise a better child by having them suffer, ie not always get what they want.

Can you do evil or rather, subvert someones will, and be good?

I think the whole notion of evil ultimately boils down to one not being able to fully exercise ones will, basically not having omnipotence.
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15-02-2014, 01:06 PM
RE: Proceating Evil
(15-02-2014 01:04 PM)pairunoyd Wrote:  
(15-02-2014 12:51 PM)donotwant Wrote:  
  1. God exists.
  2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
  3. An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
  4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
  5. An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
  6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
  7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
  8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).
god creates a world where evil exists.
he puts humans into that world.
therefore hes evil.

you live in a world where evil exists.
you reproduce humans in that world.
therefore youre evil.

Does a loving parent cause a child evil/suffering for their own good? Do they always let them do what they want to do? We in our limited knowledge know that we can raise a better child by having them suffer, ie not always get what they want.

Can you do evil or rather, subvert someones will, and be good?

I think the whole notion of evil ultimately boils down to one not being able to fully exercise ones will, basically not having omnipotence.

The world has 7000000000 people in it.
If I and my children will not exist and make world a better place the 7000000000 will suffer more and be less happy then if I and my children would exist. So bringing children to make world a better place is good not evil from where I stand.

As for putting children through suffering it is because we did not make the world nor we are omnipotent. If we would we would do in in a sufferingless way.
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15-02-2014, 01:07 PM
RE: Proceating Evil
thanks for your help guys. Going out tonight with my daughter and ive been up all night and need some sleep. Appreciate further input. Excellent points.
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15-02-2014, 01:13 PM
RE: Proceating Evil
(15-02-2014 01:07 PM)pairunoyd Wrote:  thanks for your help guys. Going out tonight with my daughter and ive been up all night and need some sleep. Appreciate further input. Excellent points.

So apparently you did already bring someone in the world where evil exists Tongue
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15-02-2014, 02:58 PM
RE: Proceating Evil
(15-02-2014 01:07 PM)pairunoyd Wrote:  thanks for your help guys. Going out tonight with my daughter and ive been up all night and need some sleep. Appreciate further input. Excellent points.

Your continued mistake is stating that atheists think the world is evil. It has been pointed out several times that we do not. Why do you persist in this assumption in your argument? The world, i.e. nature, just is - indifferent, as it was put earlier. Our existence and experience in it is what we make of it.

Atheists present the "evil" in the world as evidence that the god presented by many christians (omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving, and holy) does not exist. We don't think the world is evil, but just point out that conditions exist on this planet that don't match up with an omni-benevolent creator.

So if the world just is what it is, why would I not bring children in to the world if I want them? Might they experience pain and suffering? Yes. Might they also experience joy, happiness, learning, and potentially do good in the world? Yes. I have two children, and it has been worth it to me. They have brought me love and joy, and I hope I have brought it to them as well. They are both growing up to be well adjusted young adults that I think will benefit society, without a belief in a deity. What is wrong with that?
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15-02-2014, 03:01 PM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2014 03:06 PM by Freethought.)
RE: Proceating Evil
I'm not sure whether or not you are a believer, but I will be terse anyways.

If an atheist brings a child into the world where evil exists, you are comparing it to if a god brought someone into the world where evil exists and are therefore justifying your gods actions by saying it'd be hypocritical if the parent brought someone into the world and then criticized god when he himself had done the same.

You simply cannot compare the two. You simply cannot compare someone who has full responsibility and total control over the world to someone who tries to live their life and is not omniscient.

If your god indeed exists, he therefore assumes full responsibility for every single act of evil that goes on in the world. Your god has the choice of preventing evil but does not. This proves that if a god were to even exist, he most certainly would not be good. If the parent has a child in an evil world as you say, then your god assumes the responsibility, not the parent. Your god is an accomplice in every act of indecency and evil in the world, he is an accomplice to every action if he could have prevented it. If you could have prevented Timothy Mcveigh from blowing up that daycare full of children with no harm to yourself, would you? If you would, then you are a good person, if you would not then you could have prevented something evil but did not, which makes you an accomplice. You helped it happen by not preventing it when you could. The children who died in the Oklahoma day care where children of parents. Did those parents ever foresee their child's fate? Absolutely not. It was entirely unpredictable so how can they be held to the same responsibility as your god who not only knows everything that can/will happen, but can change it for the good but does not?

1) The parent brings the child into the world with hopes that the child will have a good life, and they are willing to play the risk of Russian roulette to ensure their child has a chance at living. If the parent had known their child would have been blown up in a bombing, and had to go through the regret and pain of having lost the child, then maybe they would have not had it. It was unknown to them and just because it's unknown they shouldn't take the chance of hoping that child might have a decent future?

2) Your god brings people into the world knowing precisely what will happen to them, whether it be evil or good. The people who are subjugated to evil, entirely out of their free will, are forced to endure it because of your god as he supposedly created them. If your god created everything, then everything and anything that happens is a direct result and cause of him, and so he should assume absolute full responsibility for everything that happens. Think of your god as a parent who before creating a child knows exactly how their life is going to turn out to be. In one circumstance god knows what will happen if he decides to create a child who develops cancer at the age of 5 and dies in agonizing pain. Your god creates him anyway. That is the difference between the parent and your god, if the latter indeed existed. The parent doesn't know what will happen if they have a kid in a world where indifference and undesirable actions exists, but they try their best to make the child's life a good one despite the circumstances. Your god knows exactly what will happen and if he sees something evil as a direct cause of him creating them, he creates them anyway when he could have stopped it by not creating them. Like seriously, talk about malevolence!

There is no concrete good or evil, we make our good and evil and as a society we can universally agree on what is desired and what is not desired. Grow up please, the universe is indifferent. That is why I am impressed with humans, we created morality.


Look, I see what you are trying to say. You are trying to say that the universe and the world is good enough for us to have offspring to enjoy the natures of life, despite it being indifferent to our well-being. So that when god creates you, and you in return create someone, you cannot without being hypocritical, tell him that he did something evil by creating you.

However, there are parents on this planet who have children and terrible things happen which if the parent knew about, they wouldn't have created the child. Like if the child was abducted, raped and killed, it would take a mentally ill parent to know about this and create the child anyway. The parent would then be an accomplice if they had the choice to help or prevent this action as it was entirely in their control!

Either a sadistic capricious malevolent mentally ill causer of evil exists, or does not. When I look around and see the randomness and indifference in peoples lives to the universe, the truth is there is no god. When I see the random chaos that happens in the universe as well as in our own planet, either there is no god, or there is one who is trying to fuck with us. Anyone can go ahead and say there is this god or that god who adheres to this teaching or that teaching, but that is just speculation and wishful thinking which holds no evidence for the claim whatsoever. We look around the world and we see what there is to see, I do not see any evidence for a god. Let alone a good one.

Everyday is judgement day. Use your judgement, use reason.
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15-02-2014, 05:23 PM
RE: Proceating Evil
(15-02-2014 01:04 PM)pairunoyd Wrote:  Does a loving parent cause a child evil/suffering for their own good?
Man i gotta stop you,this whole Parent/God analogy just doesn't work for obvious reasons.. we're talking about entire life on earth! the scale is just too big to rationalize in such a petty way of a parent rising a child.

And on a sidenote i don't think the world is "Evil" people can be evil but the world isn't if a comet strikes and destroys a city would you call that comet "Evil"?

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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