Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
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13-05-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(13-05-2015 10:14 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-05-2015 03:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Well, at least according to Rabbi Ari Enkin.

BOTH testaments say in numerous places, "...Those who trust in the Lord will not be put to shame." Anyone who trusts God will be saved. The Bible doesn't say, "Those Jews who trust in the Lord will not be put to shame."

As an aside, verses like these indicate that not all Jews are saved. They have to trust in the Lord, same as the Gentiles. Take that, Rabbis! Angel

My understanding of english might not be the best but equating "Those who trust in the Lord will not be put to shame" with "Anyone who trusts God will be saved" don't work.

And what's your point? Did Rabbi said that all Jews will be saved? Or maybe he stated what Jews believe about commandments?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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13-05-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(11-05-2015 02:04 AM)Eugryan Wrote:  Interesting proof that Moses was being instructed by God.
According to Numbers, Moses claimed that God instructed him to attack the Midianites and destroy them. They killed all including women children and infants except 2030 Virgins that they took ownership of. (they were listed in the spoils of war, along with the animals of course.)
So either;
1. God instructed Moses to destroy the Medianites to take their land animals and virgins. And he was ok with the slaughter of women and children, and lets face it the sexual assault of over 2000 virgins. (seriously, why save the virgins and kill the children and other women)
or
2. Moses was making it all up for his benefit and benefit of his people.

If a believer wants to believe the first they have to accept the God they worship has instructed horrible acts, and would be convicted as a war criminal today.

Probably #2, but even in trying to see it as #1 from the believer's point of view, it's points like these, Bible Apologists sound more like what I call Battered Spouse Apologists, i.e. he's had a rough day at work and I overcooked dinner, it's clearly my fault.

Since I used to be a Christian, I used to accept the "but the New Testament changed all that". That was before I actually took the time to read the Bible myself and came across extremely f-ed up stories like this. When does it just become unacceptable?

The best explanation (which still doesn't cut it for me) for this story:

Carm Wrote:We must understand that God dealt very harshly because it was through the people of Israel that the Messiah would later come. Satan, in his perpetual effort to oppose God, sought to have the people of God fall into false worship and through intermarriage with other people to destroy the messianic line and make not only the promises of God null and void but also destroy means by which the Messiah could be born. If this could be accomplished, then none would have any hope of deliverance from sin. Therefore, we see in the Old Testament God being very harsh and strict according to the Law.

https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/gene...midianites

Yeah. You like that? "We must understand". The language used by the battered spouse apologist.
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13-05-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(13-05-2015 10:31 AM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(11-05-2015 02:04 AM)Eugryan Wrote:  Interesting proof that Moses was being instructed by God.
According to Numbers, Moses claimed that God instructed him to attack the Midianites and destroy them. They killed all including women children and infants except 2030 Virgins that they took ownership of. (they were listed in the spoils of war, along with the animals of course.)
So either;
1. God instructed Moses to destroy the Medianites to take their land animals and virgins. And he was ok with the slaughter of women and children, and lets face it the sexual assault of over 2000 virgins. (seriously, why save the virgins and kill the children and other women)
or
2. Moses was making it all up for his benefit and benefit of his people.

If a believer wants to believe the first they have to accept the God they worship has instructed horrible acts, and would be convicted as a war criminal today.

Probably #2, but even in trying to see it as #1 from the believer's point of view, it's points like these, Bible Apologists sound more like what I call Battered Spouse Apologists, i.e. he's had a rough day at work and I overcooked dinner, it's clearly my fault.

Since I used to be a Christian, I used to accept the "but the New Testament changed all that". That was before I actually took the time to read the Bible myself and came across extremely f-ed up stories like this. When does it just become unacceptable?

The best explanation (which still doesn't cut it for me) for this story:

Carm Wrote:We must understand that God dealt very harshly because it was through the people of Israel that the Messiah would later come. Satan, in his perpetual effort to oppose God, sought to have the people of God fall into false worship and through intermarriage with other people to destroy the messianic line and make not only the promises of God null and void but also destroy means by which the Messiah could be born. If this could be accomplished, then none would have any hope of deliverance from sin. Therefore, we see in the Old Testament God being very harsh and strict according to the Law.

https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/gene...midianites

Yeah. You like that? "We must understand". The language used by the battered spouse apologist.

There can bo no other language used, for god deeds are horrible. I must say I'm kinda amazed how anyone could think of OT god as loving/caring/whatever when he is clearly not.

Bible become much easier to understand if one thinks of it as book about customs, moral and myths with lot of plagiarism. Also god jealousy is better explained through Hebrew faith beign easy to influence than by his supposed love for chosen people. God was jealous=priest weren't getting enough money and influence so let's write about god wrath for spurning him.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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13-05-2015, 11:11 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
Another thought crossed my mind while reading this story. God wants a portion of the virgins brought back.

What the hell is God going to do with the virgins? Maybe that's not a good thought.

Three possibilities.

1. If Moses is making up the God thing as a way to control the people, he tells them to give him a portion of the virgins so that he can have his way with them, and just telling people that it's God. "If I leaveth this sock on the tabernacle, thou shalt not enter, uh, thus saith the Lord your God."

2. God comes down has some weird smoke sex with the virgins. "That burning sensation in my bush."

3. In keeping with the consistency of what God has been demanding of the people, God wants the virgins to be sacrificed. "A burnt virgin as a sweet savour unto the Lord."

Either way, this is one of the most screwed up stories in the Bible that I've gotten too so far. And I'm not even done with Deuteronomy yet.
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14-05-2015, 10:01 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(13-05-2015 10:24 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(13-05-2015 10:14 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  BOTH testaments say in numerous places, "...Those who trust in the Lord will not be put to shame." Anyone who trusts God will be saved. The Bible doesn't say, "Those Jews who trust in the Lord will not be put to shame."

As an aside, verses like these indicate that not all Jews are saved. They have to trust in the Lord, same as the Gentiles. Take that, Rabbis! Angel

My understanding of english might not be the best but equating "Those who trust in the Lord will not be put to shame" with "Anyone who trusts God will be saved" don't work.

And what's your point? Did Rabbi said that all Jews will be saved? Or maybe he stated what Jews believe about commandments?

The OT quotations are cited by NT authors when explaining salvation.

My point is that anyone who says all Jewish people are somehow better than Gentiles or receiving salvation de facto are incorrect. Jews and Gentiles alike need to trust Christ:

Are you going to Heaven?

Why?

Are you perfect?

No one’s perfect. We’ve got a problem, don’t we? For which there is only one solution.

**********

Jesus Christ has done six vital things for us, took our sin, our guilt, our shame, received our punishment.

He died on the cross to pay for our sin and He rose from the dead forever.

There’s only one way that He tells us to go to Heaven, to place our trust in Christ, to trust in what He did: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish in Hell but have eternal life in Heaven."

Just like we trust a bus driver to take us without our effort to a destination, we trust in Christ, and know assuredly we are going to Heaven.

Would you like to place your trust in Christ right now? (If you were to talk to God, what would you say to Him?)

**********

Here's how I have been taught to understand the gospel/good news of salvation from Jesus. Does this match your understanding? Why or why not?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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14-05-2015, 10:25 AM (This post was last modified: 14-05-2015 10:29 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(14-05-2015 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(13-05-2015 10:24 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  My understanding of english might not be the best but equating "Those who trust in the Lord will not be put to shame" with "Anyone who trusts God will be saved" don't work.

And what's your point? Did Rabbi said that all Jews will be saved? Or maybe he stated what Jews believe about commandments?

The OT quotations are cited by NT authors when explaining salvation.

My point is that anyone who says all Jewish people are somehow better than Gentiles or receiving salvation de facto are incorrect. Jews and Gentiles alike need to trust Christ:

Are you going to Heaven?

Why?

Are you perfect?

No one’s perfect. We’ve got a problem, don’t we? For which there is only one solution.

**********

Jesus Christ has done six vital things for us, took our sin, our guilt, our shame, received our punishment.

He died on the cross to pay for our sin and He rose from the dead forever.

There’s only one way that He tells us to go to Heaven, to place our trust in Christ, to trust in what He did: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish in Hell but have eternal life in Heaven."

Just like we trust a bus driver to take us without our effort to a destination, we trust in Christ, and know assuredly we are going to Heaven.

Would you like to place your trust in Christ right now? (If you were to talk to God, what would you say to Him?)

**********

Here's how I have been taught to understand the gospel/good news of salvation from Jesus. Does this match your understanding? Why or why not?

Was Rabbi saying that Jews are better? If so then I also disagree. As for second part, sure you could believe that but I do not feel the need to trust some historical character turned into son of god.

No, nothing points that I go to heaven as afterlife is fairy tale for those who can't accept that death is the end. And I'm certainly not perfect, but we dont't have any problem, or at least I don't have. You may have some problem, but I don't care about this. You may also think that there is only one solution to your problem, but again I don't care.

Jesus Christ - if that's was his real name - did nothing for us, or to be specific did nothing for me. I see sin as religious concept without bearing on my life, and I do not care for supposed punishment for supposed sins by some imaginary god. So in short, guy named Jesus died or was killed for, well who really know, but I'm not indcotrinated into belief that he died for my sins.

He died on the cross? Maybe. He died for our sins and rose from the dead. It's indoctrination speaking.

And yes, god so love humans than he can not forgive them, he have to torture his supposed son. Make sense Wink

"Trusting" in the capability of driver do do his job is not the same as believing in some fairy tale.

As for talking to god - I would ask if he slept well during the Shoah.

My understanding is such that entire Bible is nothing better and more credible than Edda for example. Discussion between us is entirely devoid of sense as I see religion as rubbish, designed to take advantage of others, and Bible as bloody and only somewhat interesting collection of tales about myth and morals of some ancient dudes. Your view obviously is entirelly different, and it's fine with me considering that your beliefs don't have influence on my life. But I'm not interested in hearing about god love for us, Jesus dying for our sins or some such.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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14-05-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
Jesus don't die on the cross anyways. 3 hours on the cross isn't enough to kill a young like Jesus. Even Pilate was surprised Jesus " died " so fast. Real cruxifictions lasted several days.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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14-05-2015, 11:27 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(14-05-2015 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(13-05-2015 10:24 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  My understanding of english might not be the best but equating "Those who trust in the Lord will not be put to shame" with "Anyone who trusts God will be saved" don't work.

And what's your point? Did Rabbi said that all Jews will be saved? Or maybe he stated what Jews believe about commandments?

The OT quotations are cited by NT authors when explaining salvation.

My point is that anyone who says all Jewish people are somehow better than Gentiles or receiving salvation de facto are incorrect. Jews and Gentiles alike need to trust Christ:

Are you going to Heaven?

Why?

Are you perfect?

No one’s perfect. We’ve got a problem, don’t we? For which there is only one solution.

**********

Jesus Christ has done six vital things for us, took our sin, our guilt, our shame, received our punishment.

He died on the cross to pay for our sin and He rose from the dead forever.

There’s only one way that He tells us to go to Heaven, to place our trust in Christ, to trust in what He did: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish in Hell but have eternal life in Heaven."

Just like we trust a bus driver to take us without our effort to a destination, we trust in Christ, and know assuredly we are going to Heaven.

Would you like to place your trust in Christ right now? (If you were to talk to God, what would you say to Him?)

**********

Here's how I have been taught to understand the gospel/good news of salvation from Jesus. Does this match your understanding? Why or why not?

Prove the existence of heaven.

Prove the Incarnation and Atonement concept is anything but a philosophical musing. Perhaps if we drink unicorn piss we will wake up in heaven the next morning....sounds as logical as pretending to mind meld with a mythical zombie savior after pretending to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood, thus telepathically accepting him as our savior and believing he voluntarily died on the cross to wash away our eternal sin because eve ate an apple...an action that the mythical abrahamic faith based Judaea Christian god being uber powerful and Omni present knew would occur before he planted the fucking tree, so he is at fault for this whole BS eternal sin concept, perhaps he is an attention whore and created all of this to be able to force his creations into abject subjugation and worship. Very child like and ego-centric for a world and life creator.

Who trusts in Christ? You do realize as I have pointed out over and over he is just one of a series of hero-god concepts, from Osiris down to Romulus, to Jesus etc...

Place your trust in the great pumpkin, quickly or spend eternity in the oven without whipped cream.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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14-05-2015, 04:34 PM (This post was last modified: 14-05-2015 04:40 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(14-05-2015 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Jesus Christ has done six vital things for us, took our sin, our guilt, our shame, received our punishment.

He died on the cross to pay for our sin and He rose from the dead forever.

Too bad he couldn't have done something about your arrogant presumption that you somehow have special privileged knowledge into the mind of God.

(14-05-2015 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If you were to talk to God, what would you say to Him?

I'd tell it to suck my chocolate salty balls and it would laugh and say "Good answer, Bob."

#sigh
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15-05-2015, 08:04 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(13-05-2015 10:12 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(11-05-2015 05:19 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Everything YHWH did in the OT can be excused by Christians.
...

Can we correct that to: "everything can be excused by the Bible" as that would be more accurate?
...

No. The bible is just a book. It doesn't excuse anything. It's the people who read it and interpret it that excuse everything in it. But only some people. For example, atheists read it and don't excuse anything. It's the Christians who do. Sorry if the truth hurts.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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