Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
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18-05-2015, 10:19 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(15-05-2015 02:54 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 02:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  Naturalism is supported by the evidence. The universe works on the natural principles that science has uncovered with no evidence of any supernatural or magical influences.

Nice try....

Science and evidence....those are clearly works of the devil. Big Grin

Just remember, God and Satan are playing a game where God lets Satan fuck with us to try to get us to be reasonable. That way God can reward the crazies who will believe wild, far-out fairytales, with eternal heaven, while all reasonable and rational people are sent hell where they belong.

I think God, not Satan, gave us the background for science, logic and evidence. I think Satan is delighted when Christians are anti-science or when non-Christians worship science instead of the Creator.

I also think, and this is the Bible's stance (unless you have a different interpretation?) that God hides Himself from skeptics and reveals Himself to all who are wanting... more.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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18-05-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(11-05-2015 02:04 AM)Eugryan Wrote:  Interesting proof that Moses was being instructed by God.
According to Numbers, Moses claimed that God instructed him to attack the Midianites and destroy them. They killed all including women children and infants except 2030 Virgins that they took ownership of. (they were listed in the spoils of war, along with the animals of course.)
So either;
1. God instructed Moses to destroy the Medianites to take their land animals and virgins. And he was ok with the slaughter of women and children, and lets face it the sexual assault of over 2000 virgins. (seriously, why save the virgins and kill the children and other women)
or
2. Moses was making it all up for his benefit and benefit of his people.

If a believer wants to believe the first they have to accept the God they worship has instructed horrible acts, and would be convicted as a war criminal today.

The good thing is that this never happened, the bad thing is some still find this horrible motif moral. The PC left while well intended still fails to see that while they are empathetic, are reading the exact same books as those on the right who justify bigotry and violence. The left are the ones watering it down. The right are the ones doing more word for word what that immoral book tells them to do.

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18-05-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(18-05-2015 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 02:54 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Nice try....

Science and evidence....those are clearly works of the devil. Big Grin

Just remember, God and Satan are playing a game where God lets Satan fuck with us to try to get us to be reasonable. That way God can reward the crazies who will believe wild, far-out fairytales, with eternal heaven, while all reasonable and rational people are sent hell where they belong.

I think God, not Satan, gave us the background for science, logic and evidence. I think Satan is delighted when Christians are anti-science or when non-Christians worship science instead of the Creator.

I also think, and this is the Bible's stance (unless you have a different interpretation?) that God hides Himself from skeptics and reveals Himself to all who are wanting... more.

Why would a loving God want to hide himself from anybody? Why set up the world to look as though no God exists and then turn around and torture people for eternity for not believing in Him? If this is really the case--is this omnipotent being truly the definition of Love?
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18-05-2015, 10:23 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(15-05-2015 05:56 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 01:31 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Etymologically speaking, the word sin comes from the Bible and means in the NT, "imperfection". It certainly sounds like you find the Shoah to be "bad" or "evil" or "imperfection". From my standpoint as a Bible believer, you believe in sin.

As for evil itself, I like what William Lane Craig wrote:

As the Christian sees things, God does not stand idly by, coolly observing the suffering of His creatures. He enters into and shares our suffering. He endures the anguish of seeing his son, the second person of the Trinity, consigned to the bitterly cruel and shameful death of the cross. Christ was prepared to endure the agonies of hell itself... in order to overcome sin, and death, and the evils that afflict our world, and to confer on us a life more glorious that we can imagine. He was prepared to suffer on our behalf, to accept suffering of which we can form no conception.

From my standpoint sin is idiotic concept as it's offence to imaginary tyrant and/or harm done to real person, i.e. sin is not going to church and harming others. But sure Shoah certainly is bad, though calling it sin doesen't change anything.

As for William Lane Craig it's bullshit. One who is indoctrinated may believe such nonsense but to any sensible person Shoah is definite proof of benevolent god being nothing more than fairy tale.

On what basis are you delivering judgment? It cannot be foreknowledge, that is, you don't know what greater evils God might be forestalling by allowing other, lesser evils. It cannot be omniscience or even omni-benevolence, because I have a $1 U.S. that says if you insist all suffering is evil, you have caused someone before to suffer intentionally before.

But are you imply[/i]ing that if we can find evidence of Jesus/God stepping in to end events like the Shoah, that such is sufficient evidence that God cares for us?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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18-05-2015, 10:25 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(18-05-2015 10:22 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Why set up the world to look as though no God exists and then turn around and torture people for eternity for not believing in Him?
If people just die is he loving? In Judaism there is no hell
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18-05-2015, 10:25 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(16-05-2015 09:53 PM)Leo Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 01:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You might not have heard, but the Bible tells that Jesus willed His own end, and that when a Roman soldier nearby saw the manner of His death, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit" he said, "Truly, this was the Son of God."

Seriously I don't buy Jesus death on the cross after only 3 hours. Jesus was a healthy young man in his prime. Jesus legs weren't broken (unlike the other crossmates). Jesus was tortured before the crucifixion. Pilate ordered the Jesus flogging according to the story. Pilate was aware of Jesus condition before the crucifixion but even with this in mind, Pilate don't expected Jesus to die that fast. According to the story Jesus was pierced by a spear but we don't know how profound the wound was. The idea of crucifixion is about the victim suffering a very slowwwww death agonizing for many hours and sometimes several days. Jesus was " buried by a rich man" in a new tomb ( never been used ) close to the Calvary. This part of the story is at odds with the roman crucifixion tradition. I think is very odd that the crucifixion was in the eve of Passover and the day before the sabbath. The crucifixion was set in way that Jesus can't be on the cross after 7 pm or sunset ( sunset in jerusalem at April begins at 7:00pm or 19:00 hours). Jesus was crucified about noon , " died " about 3pm. Jesus probably was taken down from the cross at about 5:00pm. His body was placed in the tomb sometime before 7:00pm probably about 6:00pm. Crucifixion victims were usually hung on the cross until decomposition. Anyway Jesus death after only 3 hours on the cross is very unlikely. Being crucified don't necessary means death. Some victims in the roman times survived the crucifixion because they were taken down from the cross in time. Any victim of cruxifiction taken down from the cross in time with medical assistance can survived the crucifixion. Josephus documented some people surviving their crucifixions. Josephus himself tried to save 3 crucifixion victims. 2 of them died and 1 victim was SAVED.

You should read in the gospels where (bravely) the request was made for the body and burial to Pilate. I'm saying there's nothing in the Bible that cannot be explained by the Bible.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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18-05-2015, 10:26 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(18-05-2015 10:22 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I think God, not Satan, gave us the background for science, logic and evidence. I think Satan is delighted when Christians are anti-science or when non-Christians worship science instead of the Creator.

I also think, and this is the Bible's stance (unless you have a different interpretation?) that God hides Himself from skeptics and reveals Himself to all who are wanting... more.

Why would a loving God want to hide himself from anybody? Why set up the world to look as though no God exists and then turn around and torture people for eternity for not believing in Him? If this is really the case--is this omnipotent being truly the definition of Love?

Why would a loving person hide from a loving being? How does a love relationship "work" when one partner curses the other, refuses to read their letters and documents sent to them, and holds anger/enmity against the other?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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18-05-2015, 10:28 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(18-05-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 02:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  Naturalism is supported by the evidence. The universe works on the natural principles that science has uncovered with no evidence of any supernatural or magical influences.

Please correct me if I'm wrong:

supernatural - (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Are you saying science has taken care of all these sorts of things? Because I can't think of a science that doesn't contain these sorts of things, whether there are things currently "beyond scientific understanding" or oddly anomalous.

When explanations have been found, the answer has never been magic. The fact that we don't yet have all the explanations is not a justification for inserting it.

Quote:That goes beside the obvious, that the Bible I adhere to provides multiple apologetics explaining why God is bigger than a test tube.

The Bible is not evidence. This has been explained to you repeatedly.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-05-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(18-05-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-05-2015 09:53 PM)Leo Wrote:  Seriously I don't buy Jesus death on the cross after only 3 hours. Jesus was a healthy young man in his prime. Jesus legs weren't broken (unlike the other crossmates). Jesus was tortured before the crucifixion. Pilate ordered the Jesus flogging according to the story. Pilate was aware of Jesus condition before the crucifixion but even with this in mind, Pilate don't expected Jesus to die that fast. According to the story Jesus was pierced by a spear but we don't know how profound the wound was. The idea of crucifixion is about the victim suffering a very slowwwww death agonizing for many hours and sometimes several days. Jesus was " buried by a rich man" in a new tomb ( never been used ) close to the Calvary. This part of the story is at odds with the roman crucifixion tradition. I think is very odd that the crucifixion was in the eve of Passover and the day before the sabbath. The crucifixion was set in way that Jesus can't be on the cross after 7 pm or sunset ( sunset in jerusalem at April begins at 7:00pm or 19:00 hours). Jesus was crucified about noon , " died " about 3pm. Jesus probably was taken down from the cross at about 5:00pm. His body was placed in the tomb sometime before 7:00pm probably about 6:00pm. Crucifixion victims were usually hung on the cross until decomposition. Anyway Jesus death after only 3 hours on the cross is very unlikely. Being crucified don't necessary means death. Some victims in the roman times survived the crucifixion because they were taken down from the cross in time. Any victim of cruxifiction taken down from the cross in time with medical assistance can survived the crucifixion. Josephus documented some people surviving their crucifixions. Josephus himself tried to save 3 crucifixion victims. 2 of them died and 1 victim was SAVED.

You should read in the gospels where (bravely) the request was made for the body and burial to Pilate. I'm saying there's nothing in the Bible that cannot be explained by the Bible.

The Bible never explains the contradictions...
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18-05-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(16-05-2015 01:44 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 01:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You might not have heard, but the Bible tells that Jesus willed His own end, and that when a Roman soldier nearby saw the manner of His death, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit" he said, "Truly, this was the Son of God."

Jeebus Q, you really are a masochist, aren't you! I got to admire your balls. You've been so comprehensively intellectually squashed, yet you still keep coming back. I'm actually glad you keep coming back... it reminds me how stupid and tasteless the average Christian is, and therefore why I need to do what I do. Have you by any chance got any Christian mates you can send over here? Anyone who thinks they need to save some souls? I could use the sparring practice.

Jesus never willed his own end. He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey and claimed he was a king. He took on the Romans in a fight and he lost. The Romans then made up stories about him so as to heap shit on him and everything he represented.... And that's what you are reading in the gospels.

The Roman soldiers quite obviously never thought the political trouble causer was the son of God. That was an idea invented by the over imaginative Paul, who only appeared on the scene 20 years later. The Roman soldier was just doing his job. He was probably thinking about what he was going to have for dinner, not the status of the grubby little Jewish boy.

When do we begin to spar? Because this sounds like speculation, not fact, and on these bases:

1) You keep casting aspersions on the gospel authors and Paul, but accept Marcion and etc. - on what basis do you falsify some ancient documents and not others? Because they contain testimonies of miracles? Scholars recognize that Muhammed was an historical figure. I can see some truth in the Qu'ran even though I don't think Muhammed did even one miracle. Knocking a whole book, actually 66 of them, because you don't believe in miracles, seems a bit weird... no it CANNOT be miracles, because Marcion and etc. talk about miracles in the Bible and elsewhere, too. Aren't you cherry picking ancient authors/authorship to form your conclusions?

2) The Romans did a lousy job with their conspiracy. The false Paul writings gave hope to Jewish believers in times of Roman attack and diaspora. The church just got bigger and bigger, and with a leg up from false-believer Constantine, took the whole state over - no more gladiatorial combat or burning Christians for torches, boo-hoo. Why didn't some Roman point out either to Constantine or in polemics against Constantine that Christianity was a Roman invention? No, the Romans screwed up big. Do you agree?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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