Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
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20-05-2015, 08:05 PM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(11-05-2015 02:04 AM)Eugryan Wrote:  Interesting proof that Moses was being instructed by God.
According to Numbers, Moses claimed that God instructed him to attack the Midianites and destroy them. They killed all including women children and infants except 2030 Virgins that they took ownership of. (they were listed in the spoils of war, along with the animals of course.)
So either;
1. God instructed Moses to destroy the Medianites to take their land animals and virgins. And he was ok with the slaughter of women and children, and lets face it the sexual assault of over 2000 virgins. (seriously, why save the virgins and kill the children and other women)
or
2. Moses was making it all up for his benefit and benefit of his people.

If a believer wants to believe the first they have to accept the God they worship has instructed horrible acts, and would be convicted as a war criminal today.

It was a way to completely eradicate a population. The virgins would have been allowed to live because the ancestry was, I believe, passed on by the male. A professor did state though that the Ancient Jews were afraid of having foreign wives because they could teach the children the pagan ways.
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20-05-2015, 10:41 PM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(20-05-2015 08:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The alternatives include:

Morality is subject to the greater good of the society. The Nazi society affirmed the Shoah to be good.

And then the rest of the world shut the fucking Nazi society down. For the greater good.

(20-05-2015 08:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All creatures, including men, die. The Shoah has no objective meaning or purpose whatsoever.

Or do you have a different interpretation?

Nope, that's pretty much it. You have evidence otherwise?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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21-05-2015, 09:25 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(20-05-2015 10:41 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 08:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The alternatives include:

Morality is subject to the greater good of the society. The Nazi society affirmed the Shoah to be good.

And then the rest of the world shut the fucking Nazi society down. For the greater good.

(20-05-2015 08:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All creatures, including men, die. The Shoah has no objective meaning or purpose whatsoever.

Or do you have a different interpretation?

Nope, that's pretty much it. You have evidence otherwise?

1. The "greater good" you're citing is that the Nazis were killing people so other people killed Nazis for the good of society. Again, you'd have to demonstrate how you know objectively the Nazi-killings were bad and the Allies, good. I know how to parse them, and the standards I use include the Jews are the apple of God's eye and the Nazis' destruction was foreordained!

2. Your statement that the Nazis were shut down for the greater good implies the Shoah was bad. Be consistent.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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21-05-2015, 11:44 AM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2015 10:08 PM by evenheathen.)
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(21-05-2015 09:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 10:41 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  And then the rest of the world shut the fucking Nazi society down. For the greater good.


Nope, that's pretty much it. You have evidence otherwise?

1. The "greater good" you're citing is that the Nazis were killing people so other people killed Nazis for the good of society. Again, you'd have to demonstrate how you know objectively the Nazi-killings were bad and the Allies, good. I know how to parse them, and the standards I use include the Jews are the apple of God's eye and the Nazis' destruction was foreordained!

2. Your statement that the Nazis were shut down for the greater good implies the Shoah was bad. Be consistent.

Greater good implies nothing objectively. Your perspective is skewed through your good glasses.

Edit for typing on my phone : "god " glasses. Essentially you have a preconception of the world that requires an objective standard for everything. Free thought is about realizing that there's a lot about our world that we just haven't figured out yet. We owe it to ourselves to take a step back and consider the fact that we could be doing so much better if we got rid of this type of thinking.

The holocaust sucked, and it doesn't take this much inspection to figure out why. It's a horrible yet interesting point in our recent history that merits reflection, but not every moral concept needs to be compared to it. I believe every situation is judged according to the context it's viewed in. It always has been, we've just been around long enough now to figure out that the way it used to be ain't the way it should be. We can do better now, and we have no excuse that we still live in willful ignorance of that fact.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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22-05-2015, 10:11 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(21-05-2015 11:44 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 09:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. The "greater good" you're citing is that the Nazis were killing people so other people killed Nazis for the good of society. Again, you'd have to demonstrate how you know objectively the Nazi-killings were bad and the Allies, good. I know how to parse them, and the standards I use include the Jews are the apple of God's eye and the Nazis' destruction was foreordained!

2. Your statement that the Nazis were shut down for the greater good implies the Shoah was bad. Be consistent.

Greater good implies nothing objectively. Your perspective is skewed through your good glasses.

Edit for typing on my phone : "god " glasses. Essentially you have a preconception of the world that requires an objective standard for everything. Free thought is about realizing that there's a lot about our world that we just haven't figured out yet. We owe it to ourselves to take a step back and consider the fact that we could be doing so much better if we got rid of this type of thinking.

The holocaust sucked, and it doesn't take this much inspection to figure out why. It's a horrible yet interesting point in our recent history that merits reflection, but not every moral concept needs to be compared to it. I believe every situation is judged according to the context it's viewed in. It always has been, we've just been around long enough now to figure out that the way it used to be ain't the way it should be. We can do better now, and we have no excuse that we still live in willful ignorance of that fact.

Of course the holocaust was bad. I believe in evil. But skeptics are quick to point out God's evil and forget that the evil in them is the same evil in the Nazis. The Nazis were people.

Also, words like justice and mercy are mere platitudes without action and rules. The Bible provides rules.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-05-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(22-05-2015 10:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 11:44 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Greater good implies nothing objectively. Your perspective is skewed through your good glasses.

Edit for typing on my phone : "god " glasses. Essentially you have a preconception of the world that requires an objective standard for everything. Free thought is about realizing that there's a lot about our world that we just haven't figured out yet. We owe it to ourselves to take a step back and consider the fact that we could be doing so much better if we got rid of this type of thinking.

The holocaust sucked, and it doesn't take this much inspection to figure out why. It's a horrible yet interesting point in our recent history that merits reflection, but not every moral concept needs to be compared to it. I believe every situation is judged according to the context it's viewed in. It always has been, we've just been around long enough now to figure out that the way it used to be ain't the way it should be. We can do better now, and we have no excuse that we still live in willful ignorance of that fact.

Of course the holocaust was bad. I believe in evil. But skeptics are quick to point out God's evil and forget that the evil in them is the same evil in the Nazis. The Nazis were people.

Also, words like justice and mercy are mere platitudes without action and rules. The Bible provides rules.

the bible also says god committed genocide and infanticide on a global scale who also endorses this

good and evil are not objective terms, they are subjective in every way imaginable way
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22-05-2015, 10:56 AM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2015 11:12 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(22-05-2015 10:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 11:44 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Greater good implies nothing objectively. Your perspective is skewed through your good glasses.

Edit for typing on my phone : "god " glasses. Essentially you have a preconception of the world that requires an objective standard for everything. Free thought is about realizing that there's a lot about our world that we just haven't figured out yet. We owe it to ourselves to take a step back and consider the fact that we could be doing so much better if we got rid of this type of thinking.

The holocaust sucked, and it doesn't take this much inspection to figure out why. It's a horrible yet interesting point in our recent history that merits reflection, but not every moral concept needs to be compared to it. I believe every situation is judged according to the context it's viewed in. It always has been, we've just been around long enough now to figure out that the way it used to be ain't the way it should be. We can do better now, and we have no excuse that we still live in willful ignorance of that fact.

Of course the holocaust was bad. I believe in evil. But skeptics are quick to point out God's evil and forget that the evil in them is the same evil in the Nazis. The Nazis were people.

Also, words like justice and mercy are mere platitudes without action and rules. The Bible provides rules.

Of course Nazis were people. So what? Members of Inquisition also were people.

Bile describe genocide by supposedly merciful god so it is not the kind of book that I would use as moral guideline.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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23-05-2015, 10:45 AM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(22-05-2015 10:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... The Bible provides rules.

For whom?

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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23-05-2015, 10:58 AM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2015 11:07 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(23-05-2015 10:45 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  
(22-05-2015 10:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... The Bible provides rules.

For whom?

For those who believe that if there is no god then everything is permitted. Sadly there is quite a few of such peoples.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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23-05-2015, 12:20 PM
RE: Proof Moses was not instructed by God.
(23-05-2015 10:58 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  For those who believe that if there is no god then everything is permitted. Sadly there is quite a few of such peoples.

I believe this. Are you saying that you believe that an objective morality exists? Do you believe that an action can possess the quality of "right" or "wrong" (or "good" or "evil")?
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