Proof? Whats hell is that!?
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05-03-2013, 12:39 AM
Proof? Whats hell is that!?
I can't seam to grasp why it is religious people can't grasp the meaning of the word "proof", or more accurately "evidence". For example, I've asked one of my Christian friends for evidence of gods existence. He said "Look around, everything is proof of god, because its too complex to just make itself". I tried telling him that just because something exists doesn't mean that something created it. Because something is there only proves that it exists. But, he didn't have any of it.

Is this scientific ignorance? Is it simply not understanding the proper definition of the word? Or is it simply not caring about what is true and instead believing the fairytales' that put a smile on their faces when they're lonely.
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05-03-2013, 02:25 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 12:39 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  I can't seam to grasp why it is religious people can't grasp the meaning of the word "proof", or more accurately "evidence". For example, I've asked one of my Christian friends for evidence of gods existence. He said "Look around, everything is proof of god, because its too complex to just make itself". I tried telling him that just because something exists doesn't mean that something created it. Because something is there only proves that it exists. But, he didn't have any of it.

Is this scientific ignorance? Is it simply not understanding the proper definition of the word? Or is it simply not caring about what is true and instead believing the fairytales' that put a smile on their faces when they're lonely.
Everything that exist can be placed into two categories.
  1. Thoses things which require an intellect for thier inception or continued existence.
  2. Those things which do not require an intellect for thier inception or continued existence.
If you can show that something belongs(or likely belongs) in category 1 but was not created by humans or smart animals(like a beaver making a beaver dam), then you have evidence for an outside creator.

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05-03-2013, 03:31 AM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2013 03:36 AM by Adenosis.)
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 12:39 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  Is this scientific ignorance? Is it simply not understanding the proper definition of the word? Or is it simply not caring about what is true and instead believing the fairytales' that put a smile on their faces when they're lonely.

All of the above. Scientific ignorance which results in a poor understanding of what constitutes as good evidence, paired with the delusion of a deity which can tend to work against gaining any scientific understanding. Vicous circle it is.

(05-03-2013 02:25 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Everything that exist can be placed into two categories.
  1. Thoses things which require an intellect for thier inception or continued existence.
  2. Those things which do not require an intellect for thier inception or continued existence.
If you can show that something belongs(or likely belongs) in category 1 but was not created by humans or smart animals(like a beaver making a beaver dam), then you have evidence for an outside creator.

We have set 'Everthing', which contains two subsets.
1. Things that exist.
2. Things that do not exist.

When we have no evidence that a specific thing exists, we assume it does not exist. [See Null hypothesis]

We also have set 'Humans', with two subsets.
A. Those that are rational.
B. Those that are irrational.

To fall into subset A, beliefs must not oppose subset 1 or 2.

Guess which you fit into?




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05-03-2013, 09:04 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 02:25 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(05-03-2013 12:39 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  I can't seam to grasp why it is religious people can't grasp the meaning of the word "proof", or more accurately "evidence". For example, I've asked one of my Christian friends for evidence of gods existence. He said "Look around, everything is proof of god, because its too complex to just make itself". I tried telling him that just because something exists doesn't mean that something created it. Because something is there only proves that it exists. But, he didn't have any of it.

Is this scientific ignorance? Is it simply not understanding the proper definition of the word? Or is it simply not caring about what is true and instead believing the fairytales' that put a smile on their faces when they're lonely.
Everything that exist can be placed into two categories.
  1. Thoses things which require an intellect for thier inception or continued existence.
  2. Those things which do not require an intellect for thier inception or continued existence.
If you can show that something belongs(or likely belongs) in category 1 but was not created by humans or smart animals(like a beaver making a beaver dam), then you have evidence for an outside creator.
Where would you put trees then? Trees do not have an intellect and yet they exist and continue to exist without one.

And where do you see evidence for an outside creator in the first place? The thing is, we can see beavers making beaver dams. We KNOW beavers make dams, yet you bring in an outside force that has no evidence for its own existence and conclude that it made EVERYTHING? You have never seen god create ANYTHING so how could you possibly conclude that he made anything at all.
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05-03-2013, 09:23 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 09:04 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  
(05-03-2013 02:25 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Everything that exist can be placed into two categories.
  1. Thoses things which require an intellect for thier inception or continued existence.
  2. Those things which do not require an intellect for thier inception or continued existence.
If you can show that something belongs(or likely belongs) in category 1 but was not created by humans or smart animals(like a beaver making a beaver dam), then you have evidence for an outside creator.
Where would you put trees then? Trees do not have an intellect and yet they exist and continue to exist without one.

And where do you see evidence for an outside creator in the first place? The thing is, we can see beavers making beaver dams. We KNOW beavers make dams, yet you bring in an outside force that has no evidence for its own existence and conclude that it made EVERYTHING? You have never seen god create ANYTHING so how could you possibly conclude that he made anything at all.

Even trees have some cognition, they do react to dangers, just usually not in ways we can perceive or measure.
Example is a shrub on my property that was inside a fence that contained Llamas. The Llamas kept munching on the shrub and were slowly killing it. In the course of 4 years (yes, long time lol) the shrub moved entirely outside of the fence, where it was safe. It just kept making new shoots on the outside, while ceasing to create any on the inside. Eventually it had in effect removed itself from danger.
Everything has cause and effect, the shape of the rock you are looking at has cause and effect. That's one of the first things my parents taught me, and it has shaped the way I look at things. And is part of what caused me to become an atheist at age 10. I grasped back then that even if I cannot see or measure the cause and effect of something, it still exists. We discover what makes things tick through science, and we have a very long way to go yet, even though we are progressing nicely.
The idea that "someone named god" created everything is just silly. Everything has a very good reason for being here.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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05-03-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 02:25 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Everything that exist can be placed into two categories.
  1. Thoses things which require an intellect for thier inception or continued existence.
  2. Those things which do not require an intellect for thier inception or continued existence.
If you can show that something belongs(or likely belongs) in category 1 but was not created by humans or smart animals(like a beaver making a beaver dam), then you have evidence for an outside creator.
That was such a leap, I'm surprised you survived the fall.

Anything humans create is made of materials humans did not create. In essence, therefore, everything that exists was not created by humans. So that 1) simply means those things exist and 2) says nothing about how they came to exist. For the same reasons there is no evidence for the existence of any god, there is no evidence that anything that exists was created by a god. Existence is evidence of nothing except for existence itself.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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05-03-2013, 03:00 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
Quote:I can't seam to grasp why it is religious people can't grasp the meaning of the word "proof", or more accurately "evidence". For example, I've asked one of my Christian friends for evidence of gods existence. He said "Look around, everything is proof of god, because its too complex to just make itself". I tried telling him that just because something exists doesn't mean that something created it. Because something is there only proves that it exists. But, he didn't have any of it.

Is this scientific ignorance? Is it simply not understanding the proper definition of the word? Or is it simply not caring about what is true and instead believing the fairytales' that put a smile on their faces when they're lonely.
This probably comes from the claims of Romans 1, which says, "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
While the very large universe with an invisible God in it is hardly empirical proof we can discern, Paul's point is that the wonders of the universe should prompt people to seek to answer tough questions, to seek and to find. The universe is not "court of law" evidence but underscores that we have much to learn when we compare man's knowledge to an omniscient God's...
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05-03-2013, 03:03 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 12:39 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  Is this scientific ignorance? Is it simply not understanding the proper definition of the word? Or is it simply not caring about what is true and instead believing the fairytales' that put a smile on their faces when they're lonely.

Yes, yes, and yes.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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05-03-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
Quote:Is this scientific ignorance? Is it simply not understanding the proper definition of the word? Or is it simply not caring about what is true and instead believing the fairytales' that put a smile on their faces when they're lonely.
No, yes and no!
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05-03-2013, 03:13 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 03:05 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  No, yes and no!
Denial, Admittance, Denial.

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