Proof? Whats hell is that!?
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05-03-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
Yes, please stop denying!
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05-03-2013, 03:45 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 03:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:I can't seam to grasp why it is religious people can't grasp the meaning of the word "proof", or more accurately "evidence". For example, I've asked one of my Christian friends for evidence of gods existence. He said "Look around, everything is proof of god, because its too complex to just make itself". I tried telling him that just because something exists doesn't mean that something created it. Because something is there only proves that it exists. But, he didn't have any of it.

Is this scientific ignorance? Is it simply not understanding the proper definition of the word? Or is it simply not caring about what is true and instead believing the fairytales' that put a smile on their faces when they're lonely.
This probably comes from the claims of Romans 1, which says, "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
While the very large universe with an invisible God in it is hardly empirical proof we can discern, Paul's point is that the wonders of the universe should prompt people to seek to answer tough questions, to seek and to find. The universe is not "court of law" evidences but underscores that we have much to learn when we compare man's knowledge to an omniscient God's...

I hardly think the Bible is a credible reference.
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05-03-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
Quote:I hardly think the Bible is a credible reference.
I understand. However, it colors thinking as a confirmatory bias to say it's untrue simply because it contains metaphysical statements.
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05-03-2013, 03:53 PM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2013 04:25 PM by Thoughtful Nate.)
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 03:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:I hardly think the Bible is a credible reference.
I understand. However, it colors thinking as a confirmatory bias to say it's untrue simply because it contains metaphysical statements.

So in a way its denying thought as a way of understanding?

And how else could you possibly answer a metaphysical question other then by using thought? That is assuming we are thinking of the same definition of metaphysics ( a traditional branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world)
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05-03-2013, 11:28 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 03:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:I hardly think the Bible is a credible reference.
I understand. However, it colors thinking as a confirmatory bias to say it's untrue simply because it contains metaphysical statements.

Right. Does that train of reasoning also apply to Star Wars? Is Star Wars simply untrue because of the Force? Or does its stories and claims about the Force color your thinking and make you biased against it? Consider

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05-03-2013, 11:43 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 12:39 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  I can't seam to grasp why it is religious people can't grasp the meaning of the word "proof", or more accurately "evidence". For example, I've asked one of my Christian friends for evidence of gods existence. He said "Look around, everything is proof of god, because its too complex to just make itself". I tried telling him that just because something exists doesn't mean that something created it. Because something is there only proves that it exists. But, he didn't have any of it.

Is this scientific ignorance? Is it simply not understanding the proper definition of the word? Or is it simply not caring about what is true and instead believing the fairytales' that put a smile on their faces when they're lonely.

Christians who don't understand epistemology are Christians who probably live in an echo chamber. But then again, so do many atheists.

Your answer to your Christian friend was fine, but I might suggest attempting to put him in your shoes. Ask him how he would respond if a Muslim said that "the world around you" was proof of Allah. Many Christians don't understand how foolish their arguments sound until they come out of the mouths of someone from a different religion trying to make the same argument for their own god.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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05-03-2013, 11:50 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 03:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  This probably comes from the claims of Romans 1, which says...

Atheists don't care what the bible says any more than you care what the Q'uran says.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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06-03-2013, 12:06 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2013 12:11 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(05-03-2013 11:43 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Christians who don't understand epistemology are Christians who probably live in an echo chamber. But then again, so do many atheists.

Your answer to your Christian friend was fine, but I might suggest attempting to put him in your shoes. Ask him how he would respond if a Muslim said that "the world around you" was proof of Allah. Many Christians don't understand how foolish their arguments sound until they come out of the mouths of someone from a different religion trying to make the same argument for their own god.
Echo chamber? That's what a church is. Drinking Beverage

(05-03-2013 12:39 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  I can't seam to grasp why it is religious people can't grasp the meaning of the word "proof", or more accurately "evidence". For example, I've asked one of my Christian friends for evidence of gods existence. He said "Look around, everything is proof of god, because its too complex to just make itself". I tried telling him that just because something exists doesn't mean that something created it. Because something is there only proves that it exists. But, he didn't have any of it.

Is this scientific ignorance? Is it simply not understanding the proper definition of the word? Or is it simply not caring about what is true and instead believing the fairytales' that put a smile on their faces when they're lonely.
People and religion are both emotional. Emotions are immediately satisfying, so the person isn't motivated to explore further. Seeking for a possibly contrary evidence requires a good dose of masochism. I didn't write many posts, because I googled up the topic beforehand.

And no, things aren't too complex to create themselves, not if it is done over a long time, with lots of energy input and very complex interactions with other complex developing things. Human genome isn't actually very large, it would fit on a single CD even with the junk DNA.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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06-03-2013, 12:16 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(06-03-2013 12:06 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Echo chamber? That's what a church is. Drinking Beverage

I think it's important to recognize problems with grasping logic or evidence as problems of the brain, not problems brought on by religion.

We also exist in echo chambers, such as atheist forums -- all atheist posters here all guilty of this one by definition. Even we atheists tend to use the same arguments over and over, and many of us don't understand or even listen to the responses from theists for the same reasons that they don't understand or listen to our responses (problems of the brain, mainly confirmation bias).

Calling the kettle black is just something that pots do. We're all quick to point out flaws in our adversaries while trying to minimize our own. If you strive to be rational (as I do), then you've got to try seeing your arguments from an outside perspective, perhaps by asking, "how strong would I find this argument if it came from an opponent rather than from me or an ally?" I'm not suggesting that you are personally guilty of this, Luminon, but I interpreted this response as an attempt to distance yourself from the idea of being in an echo chamber by trying to make it sound like something "they" do but that "we" don't.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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06-03-2013, 12:25 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
Existential proof relates to the highest probability relevant to our past learning and present results.

As for the constituents of eternal past and some form of eternal future, can we deem this irrational?

If we consider,say, 1billion years pre "big bang" are we really delving into irrationality?

Say, in two hundred years, information emerges re afore stated 1 billion years.

It is strange that the extant but yet unknown is irrational.

Is not science a 'rational' act in progress and the 'irrational' a self limiting concept.

'Irrational' seems to hold connotations that pre empt our accrued knowledge.
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