Proof? Whats hell is that!?
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06-03-2013, 01:24 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(06-03-2013 12:25 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Existential proof relates to the highest probability relevant to our past learning and present results.

As for the constituents of eternal past and some form of eternal future, can we deem this irrational?

If we consider,say, 1billion years pre "big bang" are we really delving into irrationality?

Say, in two hundred years, information emerges re afore stated 1 billion years.

It is strange that the extant but yet unknown is irrational.

Is not science a 'rational' act in progress and the 'irrational' a self limiting concept.

'Irrational' seems to hold connotations that pre empt our accrued knowledge.

There is nothing irrational about humouring a thought, idea, or question about things such as "what was there a billion years before the big bang?" It is only irrational to believe that you know something about that time, because right now we have no way of determining if there was anything at that time, or even if there was time.

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

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06-03-2013, 10:46 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
Quote:Right. Does that train of reasoning also apply to Star Wars? Is Star Wars simply untrue because of the Force? Or does its stories and claims about the Force color your thinking and make you biased against it?
That train of reasoning applies to the Bible and the Qu'ran but not to Star Wars, LOTR or Star Trek, because it applies to documents making truth claims and not author-admitted fictions or fantasies.
There are only a few major religious texts that make truth claims rather than stating philosophical arguments. Then some type of testing may be applied--bearing in mind that all Bible tests are predicated on the individual's confirmatory bias! What is 100% testable is this -- all born again Christians say they received evidence after opening themselves to receiving that evidence.
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06-03-2013, 11:28 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(06-03-2013 10:46 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Right. Does that train of reasoning also apply to Star Wars? Is Star Wars simply untrue because of the Force? Or does its stories and claims about the Force color your thinking and make you biased against it?
That train of reasoning applies to the Bible and the Qu'ran but not to Star Wars, LOTR or Star Trek, because it applies to documents making truth claims and not author-admitted fictions or fantasies.
There are only a few major religious texts that make truth claims rather than stating philosophical arguments. Then some type of testing may be applied--bearing in mind that all Bible tests are predicated on the individual's confirmatory bias! What is 100% testable is this -- all born again Christians say they received evidence after opening themselves to receiving that evidence.


Okay, so all we would need is for George Lucas to CLAIM that Star Wars was real, then it would be on identical footing as the Bible and the Qu'ran.

2000 years from now, after we almost kill ourselves off in a nuclear holocaust, somebody is going to form a cult around Stephen King's 'The Stand' or Frank Herbert's 'Dune', because the books don't explicitly state that they're fiction. And so too will the born-again 'Standists' and the orthodox 'Duneists' claim that they have 100% positive evidence that their faith and religion is real, and that if you don't find their 'evidence' convincing, it's because you're biased against their religion! So without knowledge that Stephen King or Frank Herbert were for-profit authors, our great-great-great-great-great-great-great mutated descendants will be having this same argument, and your reasoning will be just as much bullshit then as it is now.

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06-03-2013, 12:28 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
Quote:Okay, so all we would need is for George Lucas to CLAIM that Star Wars was real, then it would be on identical footing as the Bible and the Qu'ran.

2000 years from now, after we almost kill ourselves off in a nuclear holocaust, somebody is going to form a cult around Stephen King's 'The Stand' or Frank Herbert's 'Dune', because the books don't explicitly state that they're fiction. And so too will the born-again 'Standists' and the orthodox 'Duneists' claim that they have 100% positive evidence that their faith and religion is real, and that if you don't find their 'evidence' convincing, it's because you're biased against their religion! So without knowledge that Stephen King or Frank Herbert were for-profit authors, our great-great-great-great-great-great-great mutated descendants will be having this same argument, and your reasoning will be just as much bullshit then as it is now.
Indeed we might, if Star Wars was offering a way of atonement and salvation like a religion and if SW or Dune was explicity stating it was all FACT. And then we would have to consider the honesty, reliability and consistency of the Star Wars universe--and then still eliminate it because as the Bible says, we need multiple witnesses to confirm facts in evidence. Over 2 Million people saw God descend upon Sinai to speak with Moses... as for the rest, you're almost correct. There's a danger now that future generations will give credence to Holocaust deniers, or even to the GFSM, since so many freethinkers affirm him. So, here's a question, since thousands speak of the Flying Spaghetti Monster... how do you KNOW he's not real? Maybe he is... Smile
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06-03-2013, 06:17 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2013 06:20 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(06-03-2013 12:16 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(06-03-2013 12:06 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Echo chamber? That's what a church is. Drinking Beverage
I think it's important to recognize problems with grasping logic or evidence as problems of the brain, not problems brought on by religion.

We also exist in echo chambers, such as atheist forums -- all atheist posters here all guilty of this one by definition. Even we atheists tend to use the same arguments over and over, and many of us don't understand or even listen to the responses from theists for the same reasons that they don't understand or listen to our responses (problems of the brain, mainly confirmation bias).

Calling the kettle black is just something that pots do. We're all quick to point out flaws in our adversaries while trying to minimize our own. If you strive to be rational (as I do), then you've got to try seeing your arguments from an outside perspective, perhaps by asking, "how strong would I find this argument if it came from an opponent rather than from me or an ally?" I'm not suggesting that you are personally guilty of this, Luminon, but I interpreted this response as an attempt to distance yourself from the idea of being in an echo chamber by trying to make it sound like something "they" do but that "we" don't.
I wouldn't say so, because this is not how I work. For me, the echo chamber is the most boring place, be it a Church or a like-minded forum. And it's not reassuring, while we all agree and chill out, there are other people in other places who may have never heard the truth, they're walking around all wrong in their head!
Agreement is boring, when we agree, that means we have to stop talking and go to actually do something Smile Disagreement is a pleasant challenge, a struggle to understand, to disprove and to explain so that the other person accepts being disproven.
Of course, nobody's perfect. Often I don't even make arguments, I have no convincing, objective, external, tangible, double-blind, peer-reviewed arguments. I have a story to tell, a confession to make. Yet it is misinterpreted as an argument and a bad one at that. So then I learned to say we have a conversation, not a discussion. I don't mean it as an evidence or expect a belief. Yet a story still has to be told to people who haven't heard it before. A story has to be good, logical and possibly true.

Otherwise in a real discussion, most of my arguments already came from an opponent, I was convinced by them and keep using them. I can do that in almost all areas, because I'm detached from them. For example, I'm not emotionally attached to the 9/11 attack or the gay marriage/adoption policy, and I've changed my mind on these quite a lot.
When emotions come into play, we forget the objective logic of true and false and start using the subjective logic of mine (good, reassuring) and foreign (bad, threatening). There are very few areas where I do this, most notably in humanism discussion, I'm something of a militant humanist, fiercely opposed to things like the rule of money or ideologies over the people themselves. Most of people are like that, even atheists, in many topics.
If you care only about the truth or usefulness for humanity, you can consider absolutely anything with detachment and objective logic.

I have a hard time understanding people who invested a lot into something. Some things being false are too terrible to think about. Whoever says that, must be silenced! Things like there is no God or that my Bachelor's thesis is doomed to be rejected by the comission. Smile

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06-03-2013, 11:28 PM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(06-03-2013 12:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Okay, so all we would need is for George Lucas to CLAIM that Star Wars was real, then it would be on identical footing as the Bible and the Qu'ran.

2000 years from now, after we almost kill ourselves off in a nuclear holocaust, somebody is going to form a cult around Stephen King's 'The Stand' or Frank Herbert's 'Dune', because the books don't explicitly state that they're fiction. And so too will the born-again 'Standists' and the orthodox 'Duneists' claim that they have 100% positive evidence that their faith and religion is real, and that if you don't find their 'evidence' convincing, it's because you're biased against their religion! So without knowledge that Stephen King or Frank Herbert were for-profit authors, our great-great-great-great-great-great-great mutated descendants will be having this same argument, and your reasoning will be just as much bullshit then as it is now.
Indeed we might, if Star Wars was offering a way of atonement and salvation like a religion and if SW or Dune was explicity stating it was all FACT. And then we would have to consider the honesty, reliability and consistency of the Star Wars universe--and then still eliminate it because as the Bible says, we need multiple witnesses to confirm facts in evidence. Over 2 Million people saw God descend upon Sinai to speak with Moses... as for the rest, you're almost correct. There's a danger now that future generations will give credence to Holocaust deniers, or even to the GFSM, since so many freethinkers affirm him. So, here's a question, since thousands speak of the Flying Spaghetti Monster... how do you KNOW he's not real? Maybe he is... Smile
You didn't speak with 2 million people who "saw God descend upon Sinai to speak with Moses"... you read a story by an unknown author that claims there was 2 million people there. Would it have been more convincing if the author said it was 5 million? How about 10 million? How many eyewitnesses does the author have to make up to convince you?

Star Wars was probably not the best example because nobody believes that's true. But there were millions of believers in the Greek and Roman gods, many who claimed to have firsthand accounts of them. Are you Catholic? There are thousands of eyewitnesses in recent history who claim to have seen "the sun making a zig-zagging pattern in the sky" in response to a Catholic saint who made a prophesy regarding it. Are you a Jehovah's Witness? Joseph Smith's golden plates were witnessed by eight high-ranking members of society. But eight is so few. To convince you, Joseph Smith would have had to forge... what, 300 signatures? 400? 2 million?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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07-03-2013, 01:33 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(06-03-2013 12:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  ]Indeed we might, if Star Wars was offering a way of atonement and salvation like a religion and if SW or Dune was explicity[sic] stating it was all FACT.


Okay, so all we need NOW is claims of truth AND atonement, thanks for moving the goalpost again. So why not believe in a contemporary author who does make claims to truth AND salvation? So why aren't you a follower of Scientology? We have far more evidence that L. Ron Hubbard actually existed, whereas all evidence points to Moses being nothing more than a myth. He claims that his story of Xenu, and the trapped alien souls, and Thetans are all true; and that the way to 'salvation' is through cleansing yourself and rising to higher states of being. So without moving the goal post, why is Scientology not equally valid? Why are you not a Scientologist?


(06-03-2013 12:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And then we would have to consider the honesty, reliability and consistency of the Star Wars universe--and then still eliminate it because as the Bible says, we need multiple witnesses to confirm facts in evidence.


Wow, really? I didn't know that the Bible was now a credible source for the methodology for determining reliability. Cause I'm pretty sure evidence works out pretty well for that, which is exactly what your miracle claims lack, which is why you need to have faith to buy into it. Even in the Bible itself, where there are multiple accounts of an event, they can't fucking agree on it. Reread the resurrection story in all four Gospels, that should be enough to show that the Bible is cannot be used as any type of authority for determining truth or reliability.


(06-03-2013 12:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Over 2 Million people saw God descend upon Sinai to speak with Moses... as for the rest, you're almost correct..


2 million people supposedly witnessed a mythical figure in an uncorroborated story book filled with many miraculous account with no supporting historical evidence. The planet of Alderaan had a population of 2 BILLION before it was destroyed by the Death Star, surely that's better proof for the existence of the Death Star, Darth Vader (or as I like to call him, Space Jesus), the Galactic Empire, and the Force.


(06-03-2013 12:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There's a danger now that future generations will give credence to Holocaust deniers, or even to the GFSM, since so many freethinkers affirm him. So, here's a question, since thousands speak of the Flying Spaghetti Monster... how do you KNOW he's not real? Maybe he is...


The reason Holocaust deniers even have a foothold is because there exists people with religious agendas who share the same level of critical thought, reason, and evidence as you do for your holy book. You have no grounds dismiss or refute Holocaust deniers, your acceptance level for bullshit is just as low as theirs. I however can, because they shrivel under close scrutiny, as do all of your own arguments and 'evidence'. Same thing applies to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, as the entire endeavor is clearly satire. It's creation and objective has been stated and is well known, even if it doesn't say so right in the book itself. Only the truly delusional can't see it for what it is, a parody.


Now go crawl back under your rock and stay there until we say you can come out again...

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07-03-2013, 08:02 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
Quote:You didn't speak with 2 million people who "saw God descend upon Sinai to speak with Moses"... you read a story by an unknown author that claims there was 2 million people there. Would it have been more convincing if the author said it was 5 million? How about 10 million? How many eyewitnesses does the author have to make up to convince you?
Star Wars was probably not the best example because nobody believes that's true. But there were millions of believers in the Greek and Roman gods, many who claimed to have firsthand accounts of them. Are you Catholic? There are thousands of eyewitnesses in recent history who claim to have seen "the sun making a zig-zagging pattern in the sky" in response to a Catholic saint who made a prophesy regarding it. Are you a Jehovah's Witness? Joseph Smith's golden plates were witnessed by eight high-ranking members of society. But eight is so few. To convince you, Joseph Smith would have had to forge... what, 300 signatures? 400? 2 million?
You can search for and/or read books about the discovery of the actual, physical Mt. Sinai (under Jebel El Musa), visit the plains large enough to hold the people during a war. Regardless, there are Jews living today who can trace their lineage to the 12 sons of Jacob. There are Jews in Israel today living in a Jewish nation per the many Bible prophecies of restoration following a long return. The Diaspora of nearly 2,500 years destroyed neither their cultural identity nor their Hebrew language nor their scriptures... Italian Americans and German Americans lose their native languages after a generation... as for Mr. Smith, 8 of 11 "witnesses" to the ridiculous gold plates later recanted, including his wife and son! But... how do YOU know he didn't see them? How do you have special knowledge that the Greek gods are not real? You can say God didn't do miracles then or now... and how did you come by this particular near-omniscient understanding, please? You are going to have to make the choice that either most people who have ever lived are delusional or that there may be something(s) out there that you don't know about... sorry!
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07-03-2013, 10:01 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
(07-03-2013 08:02 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You didn't speak with 2 million people who "saw God descend upon Sinai to speak with Moses"... you read a story by an unknown author that claims there was 2 million people there. Would it have been more convincing if the author said it was 5 million? How about 10 million? How many eyewitnesses does the author have to make up to convince you?
Star Wars was probably not the best example because nobody believes that's true. But there were millions of believers in the Greek and Roman gods, many who claimed to have firsthand accounts of them. Are you Catholic? There are thousands of eyewitnesses in recent history who claim to have seen "the sun making a zig-zagging pattern in the sky" in response to a Catholic saint who made a prophesy regarding it. Are you a Jehovah's Witness? Joseph Smith's golden plates were witnessed by eight high-ranking members of society. But eight is so few. To convince you, Joseph Smith would have had to forge... what, 300 signatures? 400? 2 million?
You can search for and/or read books about the discovery of the actual, physical Mt. Sinai (under Jebel El Musa), visit the plains large enough to hold the people during a war. Regardless, there are Jews living today who can trace their lineage to the 12 sons of Jacob. There are Jews in Israel today living in a Jewish nation per the many Bible prophecies of restoration following a long return. The Diaspora of nearly 2,500 years destroyed neither their cultural identity nor their Hebrew language nor their scriptures... Italian Americans and German Americans lose their native languages after a generation... as for Mr. Smith, 8 of 11 "witnesses" to the ridiculous gold plates later recanted, including his wife and son! But... how do YOU know he didn't see them? How do you have special knowledge that the Greek gods are not real? You can say God didn't do miracles then or now... and how did you come by this particular near-omniscient understanding, please? You are going to have to make the choice that either most people who have ever lived are delusional or that there may be something(s) out there that you don't know about... sorry!


1. So what if the plains can hold 2.5 million people, what evidence do you have that the event in question actually occurred? If the mere existence of a piece of geography is proof, then we can prove the Loch Ness Monster exists by mere fact that the Loch itself actually exists. FAIL Hard.

2. The lineages are most probably fabricated, just like the lineage of Jesus. The Bible gives 2 separate genealogies for Jesus, in an effort to attach him to the House of David. All the while, somebody forgot to mention that it's all pointless because he's the son of God, not Joseph. I doubt their evidence, if they have any beyond oral tradition, would stand up to close scrutiny. Even then, the existence of 12 tribes does not prove the existence of Moses. FAIL Hard 2: FAIL Harder.

3. Immigrants loose the language of their parents and grandparents through assimilation. Notice that most of them are also Christians, and their faith is not intrinsically tied to their language. This also ignores the many Hispanic and Latino Americans that ARE retaining their parents language, Spanish. FAIL Hard with a Vengeance.

4. If mere age of your belief is the determining factor for validity, then the Hebrew are handily beat by the followers of Zoroastrianism and Hinduism. If not, then the 2500 years Diaspora means fuck all outside of being in interesting piece of social history. Live Free or FAIL Hard.

5. You don't prove negatives, you still haven't fucking learned that yet? A Good Day to FAIL Hard.

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07-03-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: Proof? Whats hell is that!?
Quote:FAIL Hard with a Vengeance.
You can see on a thread elsewhere where I discuss prophecies regarding the intact cultural miracle that is Judaism and the return to Israel by EXACT DATE in the scriptures.
Quote:You don't prove negatives, you still haven't fucking learned that yet? A Good Day to FAIL Hard.
Okay, one cannot prove a negative. However, there should be some evidence for the negative. There is excellent evidence for the existence of God. There is NO evidence for His non-existence. Provide some, please, if you will.
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